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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 10:50:37 GMT -5
For the nonduality concept to have an impact (resonance), the madness of rejecting the evidence of our own eyes, that the many separate things are in reality merely a manifestation of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, can surprisingly result in the end of the search without any further understanding or experience. Niz said that such an event could be fast (Boom) or slow (lots of practise) and that either was ok and one no better than the other.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 19, 2020 11:06:17 GMT -5
For the nonduality concept to have an impact (resonance), the madness of rejecting the evidence of our own eyes, that the many separate things are in reality merely a manifestation of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, can surprisingly result in the end of the search without any further understanding or experience. If so, the search may have ended too soon. When Bankei visited Dosha and communicated his understanding, Dosha said, "You've penetrated the matter of the self, but you haven't yet penetrated the matter beyond." Bankei couldn't believe it, but after meditating for another year, he had a further realization that Dosha accepted as having penetrated the issue that he had been pointing to a year earlier. During the last several years I've met quite a few people who attained peace of mind and felt like they had come to the end of the search, but who had not apprehended the Infinite. Some of them claimed to have had a realization that the search for truth, itself, is only a mind game, and that insight, alone, ended their search. Some of us would say that there is more to see than that, and that finding what Art Ticknor called, "the solid ground of being" requires discovering what lies beyond the mind.
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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 11:28:26 GMT -5
For the nonduality concept to have an impact (resonance), the madness of rejecting the evidence of our own eyes, that the many separate things are in reality merely a manifestation of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, can surprisingly result in the end of the search without any further understanding or experience. If so, the search may have ended too soon. When Bankei visited Dosha and communicated his understanding, Dosha said, "You've penetrated the matter of the self, but you haven't yet penetrated the matter beyond." Bankei couldn't believe it, but after meditating for another year, he had a further realization that Dosha accepted as having penetrated the issue that he had been pointing to a year earlier. During the last several years I've met quite a few people who attained peace of mind and felt like they had come to the end of the search, but who had not apprehended the Infinite. Some of them claimed to have had a realization that the search for truth, itself, is only a mind game, and that insight, alone, ended their search. Some of us would say that there is more to see than that, and that finding what Art Ticknor called, "the solid ground of being" requires discovering what lies beyond the mind. Yes that may of course be the case but equally of course it is also the case that One cannot know the experience of another. One is not having the experience of the other so could only judge that by an idea about what experience might be like, a very questionable assumption to make even with the support of traditional views of Masters. As Niz said both fast (without pracise) and slow (with practise) are both ok. I suspect that what may suit depends on the character of the seeker, so room for both.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 19, 2020 11:40:10 GMT -5
If so, the search may have ended too soon. When Bankei visited Dosha and communicated his understanding, Dosha said, "You've penetrated the matter of the self, but you haven't yet penetrated the matter beyond." Bankei couldn't believe it, but after meditating for another year, he had a further realization that Dosha accepted as having penetrated the issue that he had been pointing to a year earlier. During the last several years I've met quite a few people who attained peace of mind and felt like they had come to the end of the search, but who had not apprehended the Infinite. Some of them claimed to have had a realization that the search for truth, itself, is only a mind game, and that insight, alone, ended their search. Some of us would say that there is more to see than that, and that finding what Art Ticknor called, "the solid ground of being" requires discovering what lies beyond the mind. Yes that may of course be the case but equally of course it is also the case that One cannot know the experience of another. One could only judge by an idea about what experience might be, a very questionable assumption to make even with the support of traditional views. True, but all we have to use for communication are words and actions, and based upon what people say or do, it's often possible to get a pretty good sense of what they understand, what they've experienced, and what they've realized.
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Post by amit on Jun 19, 2020 12:17:27 GMT -5
Yes that may of course be the case but equally of course it is also the case that One cannot know the experience of another. One could only judge by an idea about what experience might be, a very questionable assumption to make even with the support of traditional views. True, but all we have to use for communication are words and actions, and based upon what people say or do, it's often possible to get a pretty good sense of what they understand, what they've experienced, and what they've realized. . Some will feel ok about making those assuptions based on communication. Those that I know are pretty much blown away by the sudden nature of the experience and say they dont understand what happened and are strongly focussed on reflecting to try and understand it. They may spend considerable time asking questions, usually about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. It is usually not until it has been accepted that what we dont like is also Oneness that the process is consolidated.
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Post by laughter on Jun 19, 2020 14:13:45 GMT -5
True, but all we have to use for communication are words and actions, and based upon what people say or do, it's often possible to get a pretty good sense of what they understand, what they've experienced, and what they've realized. . Some will feel ok about making those assuptions based on communication. Those that I know are pretty much blown away by the sudden nature of the experience and say they dont understand what happened and are strongly focussed on reflecting to try and understand it. They may spend considerable time asking questions, usually about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. It is usually not until it has been accepted that what we dont like is also Oneness that the process is consolidated. So I take this to be a clarification of the topic of suffering from this other thread. It's a particular brand of existential questioning. I'm glad you shared it, as I can relate to it, but not necessarily in the sequence you describe - which isn't to contradict that it can happen in that sequence. For me, both this delightful madness you described and the questions about suffering were both interests that I pursued for many years. The pursuit was done consciously, but conceptually and philosophically, and not with any urgency or specific intent. It was also done physically, in seeking oneness, but the seeking of oneness was only done unconsciously. Nothing about this story is really all that exceptional, although perhaps, with some elements not so universal. So, I reached a point where I'd recognized - conceptually - the limitations of intellect in providing any answers, and settled into and refined a material, philosophical notion of oneness, and the interest in how suffering can be Oneness manifest just sort of trailed off. But, later, direct, conscious engagement with meditation and self-inquiry put all of that in a completely different light. That point, up until engaging with self-inquiry and meditation, is the material, philosophical analog I was referring to in the other thread.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 19, 2020 15:54:21 GMT -5
True, but all we have to use for communication are words and actions, and based upon what people say or do, it's often possible to get a pretty good sense of what they understand, what they've experienced, and what they've realized. . Some will feel ok about making those assuptions based on communication. Those that I know are pretty much blown away by the sudden nature of the experience and say they dont understand what happened and are strongly focussed on reflecting to try and understand it. They may spend considerable time asking questions, usually about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. It is usually not until it has been accepted that what we dont like is also Oneness that the process is consolidated. By "experience" I assume that you're referring to a kensho-like non-dual event during which oneness is either glimpsed or seen with extreme clarity. Those kinds of events vary a great deal in depth from very shallow to unutteringly profound. The deep ones are, as you say, mind-boggling in nature, and afterwards people usually spend a fair amount of time trying to understand what happened in order to place the event into some sort of sensible context. Reefs, I, and others, have speculated about the sequence of events that usually leads to non-abidance in mind (sahaja samadhi). If one goes far enough and attains a sufficient degree of realization, the Big Picture is seen, and one can then relax and live an ordinary life free from seeking anything or questioning anything. People in that category are usually able to discern whether the people they meet are still rowing a boat across the Buddha's lake, or whether they have arrived on the other shore and left the boat behind. Here are just a few of the realizations that are common on the pathless path: 1. Realizing that reality is not what it was imagined to be 2. Realizing that there is no such thing as time or space 3. Realizing that reality is unified, infinite, aware, and intellectually incomprehensible 4. Realizing that there's a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 5. Realizing that there's a difference between what things are and how they are imagined 6. Realizing how various thoughts separate one from the direct perception of "what is" 7. Realizing that who one is is not what was once imagined 8. Realizing that what one is is beyond birth or death There are many others, but these are the primary ones that come to mind.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 5:10:15 GMT -5
. Some will feel ok about making those assuptions based on communication. Those that I know are pretty much blown away by the sudden nature of the experience and say they dont understand what happened and are strongly focussed on reflecting to try and understand it. They may spend considerable time asking questions, usually about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. It is usually not until it has been accepted that what we dont like is also Oneness that the process is consolidated. By "experience" I assume that you're referring to a kensho-like non-dual event during which oneness is either glimpsed or seen with extreme clarity. Those kinds of events vary a great deal in depth from very shallow to unutteringly profound. The deep ones are, as you say, mind-boggling in nature, and afterwards people usually spend a fair amount of time trying to understand what happened in order to place the event into some sort of sensible context. Reefs, I, and others, have speculated about the sequence of events that usually leads to non-abidance in mind (sahaja samadhi). If one goes far enough and attains a sufficient degree of realization, the Big Picture is seen, and one can then relax and live an ordinary life free from seeking anything or questioning anything. People in that category are usually able to discern whether the people they meet are still rowing a boat across the Buddha's lake, or whether they have arrived on the other shore and left the boat behind. Here are just a few of the realizations that are common on the pathless path: 1. Realizing that reality is not what it was imagined to be 2. Realizing that there are no such things as time or space 3. Realizing that reality is unified, infinite, aware, and intellectually incomprehensible 4. Realizing that there's a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 5. Realizing that there's a difference between what things are and how they are imagined 6. Realizing how various thoughts separat because all is being seen as Oneness manifest e one from the direct perception of "what is" 7. Realizing that who one is is not what was once imagined 8. Realizing that what one is is beyond birth or death The nondual event is the resonanance with the concept All is One which as you say varies in intensity. Non abidance in mind is not usually a significant factor, unless having traditional beliefs, because mind is simply seen as just another example of Oneness manifesty and therefore, being Oneness, is in no way a disconnection. It is mainly about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. So the resolution is to include suffering as Oneness manifest. Suffering depends on circumstances often unknown so does not necessarily end. All that ends is there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected from Oneness whilst suffering is apparant.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2020 7:22:30 GMT -5
By "experience" I assume that you're referring to a kensho-like non-dual event during which oneness is either glimpsed or seen with extreme clarity. Those kinds of events vary a great deal in depth from very shallow to unutteringly profound. The deep ones are, as you say, mind-boggling in nature, and afterwards people usually spend a fair amount of time trying to understand what happened in order to place the event into some sort of sensible context. Reefs, I, and others, have speculated about the sequence of events that usually leads to non-abidance in mind (sahaja samadhi). If one goes far enough and attains a sufficient degree of realization, the Big Picture is seen, and one can then relax and live an ordinary life free from seeking anything or questioning anything. People in that category are usually able to discern whether the people they meet are still rowing a boat across the Buddha's lake, or whether they have arrived on the other shore and left the boat behind. Here are just a few of the realizations that are common on the pathless path: 1. Realizing that reality is not what it was imagined to be 2. Realizing that there are no such things as time or space 3. Realizing that reality is unified, infinite, aware, and intellectually incomprehensible 4. Realizing that there's a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 5. Realizing that there's a difference between what things are and how they are imagined 6. Realizing how various thoughts separat because all is being seen as Oneness manifest e one from the direct perception of "what is" 7. Realizing that who one is is not what was once imagined 8. Realizing that what one is is beyond birth or death The nondual event is the resonanance with the concept All is One which as you say varies in intensity. Non abidance in mind is not usually a significant factor, unless having traditional beliefs, because mind is simply seen as just another example of Oneness manifesty and therefore, being Oneness, is in no way a disconnection. It is mainly about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. So the resolution is to include suffering as Oneness manifest. Suffering depends on circumstances often unknown so does not necessarily end. All that ends is there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected from Oneness whilst suffering is apparant. Non-abidance in mind doesn't mean that mind ceases to function, or is thought to be separate from "what is;" it simply means that mind is no longer dominant in the same way as before. Reflection, second-guessing, fantasizing, comparison thinking, judgmentalness, etc, can just fall away, and all that remains is a total acceptance of "what is." For some people the issue of reconciling suffering with oneness never even arises, but that may be due to significantly-different life experiences.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 7:24:20 GMT -5
By "experience" I assume that you're referring to a kensho-like non-dual event during which oneness is either glimpsed or seen with extreme clarity. Those kinds of events vary a great deal in depth from very shallow to unutteringly profound. The deep ones are, as you say, mind-boggling in nature, and afterwards people usually spend a fair amount of time trying to understand what happened in order to place the event into some sort of sensible context. Reefs, I, and others, have speculated about the sequence of events that usually leads to non-abidance in mind (sahaja samadhi). If one goes far enough and attains a sufficient degree of realization, the Big Picture is seen, and one can then relax and live an ordinary life free from seeking anything or questioning anything. People in that category are usually able to discern whether the people they meet are still rowing a boat across the Buddha's lake, or whether they have arrived on the other shore and left the boat behind. Here are just a few of the realizations that are common on the pathless path: 1. Realizing that reality is not what it was imagined to be 2. Realizing that there are no such things as time or space 3. Realizing that reality is unified, infinite, aware, and intellectually incomprehensible 4. Realizing that there's a difference between relative meaning and absolute meaning 5. Realizing that there's a difference between what things are and how they are imagined 6. Realizing how various thoughts separate one from the direct perception of "what is" 7. Realizing that who one is is not what was once imagined 8. Realizing that what one is is beyond birth or death There are many others, but these are the primary ones that come to mind. The nondual event is the resonanance with the concept All is One which as you say varies in intensity. Non abidance in mind is not usually a significant factor, unless having traditional beliefs, because mind is simply seen as just another example of Oneness manifests and therefore, being Oneness, is in no way a disconnection. It is mainly about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. So the resolution is to include suffering as Oneness manifest. Suffering depends on circumstances often unknown so does not necessarily end. All that ends is there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected from Oneness whilst suffering is apparent.Once attention is back in feeling there is no separation from Wholeness anyway. Breathing is always a direct route into feeling.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 7:35:00 GMT -5
The nondual event is the resonanance with the concept All is One which as you say varies in intensity. Non abidance in mind is not usually a significant factor, unless having traditional beliefs, because mind is simply seen as just another example of Oneness manifests and therefore, being Oneness, is in no way a disconnection. It is mainly about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. So the resolution is to include suffering as Oneness manifest. Suffering depends on circumstances often unknown so does not necessarily end. All that ends is there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected from Oneness whilst suffering is apparent. Non-abidance in mind doesn't mean that mind ceases to function, or is thought to be separate from "what is;" it simply means that mind is no longer dominant in the same way as before. Reflection, second-guessing, fantasizing, comparison thinking, judgmentalness, etc, can just fall away, and all that remains is a total acceptance of "what is." For some people the issue of reconciling suffering with oneness never even arises, but that may be due to significantly-different life experiences. The crumbs in the self-made cookie jar have no nutritional value.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 9:36:37 GMT -5
Non-abidance in mind doesn't mean that mind ceases to function, or is thought to be separate from "what is;" it simply means that mind is no longer dominant in the same way as before. Reflection, second-guessing, fantasizing, comparison thinking, judgmentalness, etc, can just fall away, and all that remains is a total acceptance of "what is." For some people the issue of reconciling suffering with oneness never even arises, but that may be due to significantly-different life experiences. All the aspects of mind you refer to there as problematic are not problematic at all in terms of connection to Oneness because those aspects ARE already totally Oneness manifest, so when apparent they are not a matter of concern. It is simply Oneness minding! Mind can be left to get on with its function which has many defensive purposes beneficial to the organism, including its construction of Ego. So the falling away you refer to is not sought. I suspect the concern with Mind some have, is to do with different life experiences. If One has been sucessful with mind solving problems it is likely that it will not be excluded from the spiritual search and may even be seen very positiely as that which conducts the search, and that it has the capacity to resonate. Tony does not share that view, rather believing that mind cannot get this. I would not so easily dismiss such a complex as the mind. Or of course it may simply be traditional beliefs that decides which camp One is in.
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Post by amit on Jun 20, 2020 9:43:32 GMT -5
The nondual event is the resonanance with the concept All is One which as you say varies in intensity. Non abidance in mind is not usually a significant factor, unless having traditional beliefs, because mind is simply seen as just another example of Oneness manifests and therefore, being Oneness, is in no way a disconnection. It is mainly about how suffering can be Oneness manifest. So the resolution is to include suffering as Oneness manifest. Suffering depends on circumstances often unknown so does not necessarily end. All that ends is there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected from Oneness whilst suffering is apparent.Once attention is back in feeling there is no separation from Wholeness anyway. Breathing is always a direct route into feeling. There is already no separation from Wholeness (Oneness) once mind is accepted as totally Oneness manifest. There is nothing else available, other than Oneness, to manifest as Mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 10:06:49 GMT -5
Non-abidance in mind doesn't mean that mind ceases to function, or is thought to be separate from "what is;" it simply means that mind is no longer dominant in the same way as before. Reflection, second-guessing, fantasizing, comparison thinking, judgmentalness, etc, can just fall away, and all that remains is a total acceptance of "what is." For some people the issue of reconciling suffering with oneness never even arises, but that may be due to significantly-different life experiences. All the aspects of mind you refer to there as problematic are not problematic at all in terms of connection to Oneness because those aspects ARE already totally Oneness manifest, so when apparent they are not a matter of concern. It is simply Oneness minding! Mind can be left to get on with its function which has many defensive purposes beneficial to the organism, including its construction of Ego. So the falling away you refer to is not sought. I suspect the concern with Mind some have, is to do with different life experiences. If One has been sucessful with mind solving problems it is likely that it will not be excluded from the spiritual search and may even be seen very positiely as that which conducts the search, and that it has the capacity to resonate. Tony does not share that view, rather believing that mind cannot get this. I would not so easily dismiss such a complex as the mind. Or of course it may simply be traditional beliefs that decides which camp One is in. Amit, please try to write below the line.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 10:09:48 GMT -5
Once attention is back in feeling there is no separation from Wholeness anyway. Breathing is always a direct route into feeling. There is already no separation from Wholeness (Oneness) once mind is accepted as totally Oneness manifest. There is nothing else available, other than Oneness, to manifest as Mind. Wholeness doesn't do any manifesting it already is this. When the mind picks up the idea that it is this and starts rolling it around, then the appearance of suffering has happened.
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