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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2020 16:09:34 GMT -5
The point Nonduality tries to make is that we are already what we seek (The Supreme or Oneness, Wholeness) so the search can end because we cant become what we already are. This is true, but the Supreme must be realized directly rather than intellectually, and the Supreme, manifesting as particular humans, is the only thingless thing that can do that. Many people intellectually conclude that oneness is the case, and they may fully believe that oneness is the case, but intellectual certainty is a weak substitute for the direct apprehension and the direct knowing of the Supreme. At a retreat in California a few years ago I remember talking with a man after a public conversation between Gangajii and someone who had attained an equivalent level of realization. The man said to me, "Today I realized that I stopped searching too soon." In the past he had had a realization that left him with no more existential questions, but the conversation between Gangaji and the man on stage had made him realize that he had not seen deeply enough. Just for fun we might call this "the Bankei/Dosha phenomenon," or "the Hakuin/Shoju phenomenon." The general story is quite common in Zen. A Zen student, after two or three years of heavy-duty meditation, has a mind-blowing experience of oneness, and concludes that s/he has become enlightened. The student goes to his/her ZM, relates what happened, and the ZM laughs in response. The student can't believe it at first, but gradually realizes that the ZM has seen more deeply into the matter. The student continues to meditate, and subsequently has deeper experiences and realizations. Eventually, the student attains what the ZM has attained, and his/her attainment is acknowledged. The Supreme is vast and intellectually incomprehensible. After Hakuin had a glimpse of the Supreme, Shoju called him "a poor hole-dwelling devil," and laughed every time he saw him. 45 years ago, when I first read the story about Hakuin, I had no idea what Shoju meant by "poor hole-dwelling devil." Later, it became almost too funny for words. Applying this to ourselves is probably never not a bad idea. But, most people never set foot in a Zendo, much less pursue any sort of Zen practice. The stories and the pattern are still interesting, and, to reiterate, always an opportunity for self-honesty, despite that lack of a cultural reference point.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 21, 2020 17:20:36 GMT -5
I suggest however that it can be seen by the Mind starting from the concept that Oneness is all, I agree. It can, Jesus likened it to a mustard seed which eventually grows to a huge tree. But unlike a tree, my experience is that Understanding ever grows.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 21, 2020 17:35:04 GMT -5
This is true, but the Supreme must be realized directly rather than intellectually, and the Supreme, manifesting as particular humans, is the only thingless thing that can do that. Many people intellectually conclude that oneness is the case, and they may fully believe that oneness is the case, but intellectual certainty is a weak substitute for the direct apprehension and the direct knowing of the Supreme. At a retreat in California a few years ago I remember talking with a man after a public conversation between Gangajii and someone who had attained an equivalent level of realization. The man said to me, "Today I realized that I stopped searching too soon." In the past he had had a realization that left him with no more existential questions, but the conversation between Gangaji and the man on stage had made him realize that he had not seen deeply enough. Just for fun we might call this "the Bankei/Dosha phenomenon," or "the Hakuin/Shoju phenomenon." The general story is quite common in Zen. A Zen student, after two or three years of heavy-duty meditation, has a mind-blowing experience of oneness, and concludes that s/he has become enlightened. The student goes to his/her ZM, relates what happened, and the ZM laughs in response. The student can't believe it at first, but gradually realizes that the ZM has seen more deeply into the matter. The student continues to meditate, and subsequently has deeper experiences and realizations. Eventually, the student attains what the ZM has attained, and his/her attainment is acknowledged. The Supreme is vast and intellectually incomprehensible. After Hakuin had a glimpse of the Supreme, Shoju called him "a poor hole-dwelling devil," and laughed every time he saw him. 45 years ago, when I first read the story about Hakuin, I had no idea what Shoju meant by "poor hole-dwelling devil." Later, it became almost too funny for words. Yes well spotted:) It is often said that it is not seen that realization is not required, until after realization:). I suggest however that it can be seen by the Mind starting from the concept that Oneness is all, so it must be Oneness not realizing. It is one of the mind events that suggests to me, against all spiritual advise, traditional and otherwise, that it is mind that conducts the search and resonates with the solution it finds, just as if it was locating where the dog has taken my other sock:) Agreed. As E often said, "Realizations inform mind," but, ironically, realizations are beyond mind. There is a direct seeing, and only then does the mind understand and get put to rest concerning whatever the existential question was. Ultimately, the search for truth is pursued in order to attain peace of mind. People who come to this website and other non-duality websites want to see the Big Picture and understand what's going on because the dualistic consensus paradigm is intuited to be flawed in some fundamental way.
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2020 23:11:24 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this, but, on the flip side, even just talking about where nonduality points, even superficially, seems to me to have the potential to trigger a catharsis. Agreed. Around 6 people once a week seems to be how folk want it at the moment. Will see if someone wants to take on more. So far its just been by word of mouth. Does the group engage with nature at the camp ground as part of the process?
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Post by amit on Jun 21, 2020 23:57:35 GMT -5
Agreed. Around 6 people once a week seems to be how folk want it at the moment. Will see if someone wants to take on more. So far its just been by word of mouth. Does the group engage with nature at the camp ground as part of the process? Unavoidable as its a completely wild wooded river valley with waterfalls and pools to bathe in. Deliberayely left wild with no deveopement, just cut footpaths and spaces for several tents cut straight into the wild with a central fire for cooking and gathering. No vehicle access. Gear has to be carried in. No mains services. Since my accident (Leg amputation) I dont get down as much so my wife and eldest son run things mainly.
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Post by amit on Jun 22, 2020 0:37:56 GMT -5
Yes well spotted:) It is often said that it is not seen that realization is not required, until after realization:). I suggest however that it can be seen by the Mind starting from the concept that Oneness is all, so it must be Oneness not realizing. It is one of the mind events that suggests to me, against all spiritual advise, traditional and otherwise, that it is mind that conducts the search and resonates with the solution it finds, just as if it was locating where the dog has taken my other sock:) Agreed. As E often said, "Realizations inform mind," but, ironically, realizations are beyond mind. There is a direct seeing, and only then does the mind understand and get put to rest concerning whatever the existential question was. Ultimately, the search for truth is pursued in order to attain peace of mind. People who come to this website and other non-duality websites want to see the Big Picture and understand what's going on because the dualistic consensus paradigm is intuited to be flawed in some fundamental way. As it seems to be mind that conducts the search and is actually looking at possible solutions, it would not be surprising if it was mind that had the capacity to resonate with a solution felt to suit the particular character it served. This seems to be against all spiritual advise but I would not exclude that something as complex as the mind did have this capacity. If it is mind carrying out this service for the organism, the disissal of mind would be even more serious. But I suspect mind can appear to be limited to conceal that it is still operating to end the search. Tricky Monkey:)
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Post by laughter on Jun 22, 2020 0:51:11 GMT -5
Does the group engage with nature at the camp ground as part of the process? Unavoidable as its a completely wild wooded river valley with waterfalls and pools to bathe in. Deliberayely left wild with no deveopement, just cut footpaths and spaces for several tents cut straight into the wild with a central fire for cooking and gathering. No vehicle access. Gear has to be carried in. No mains services. Since my accident (Leg amputation) I dont get down as much so my wife and eldest son run things mainly. Ouch. I was wondering how the injury was going, missed if you wrote about losing it. Anyways, sounds similar is general structure to what the TAT people do when they meet. Have you considered pushing yourself with crutches or a prosthetic to get back moving again?
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Post by amit on Jun 22, 2020 0:56:12 GMT -5
Unavoidable as its a completely wild wooded river valley with waterfalls and pools to bathe in. Deliberayely left wild with no deveopement, just cut footpaths and spaces for several tents cut straight into the wild with a central fire for cooking and gathering. No vehicle access. Gear has to be carried in. No mains services. Since my accident (Leg amputation) I dont get down as much so my wife and eldest son run things mainly. Ouch. I was wondering how the injury was going, missed if you wrote about losing it. Anyways, sounds similar is general structure to what the TAT people do when they meet. Have you considered pushing yourself with crutches or a prosthetic to get back moving again? Yes I'm down for another leg but delayed due to virus. Adusting ok with the massive support of the family. Thanks.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 22, 2020 8:58:05 GMT -5
Agreed. As E often said, "Realizations inform mind," but, ironically, realizations are beyond mind. There is a direct seeing, and only then does the mind understand and get put to rest concerning whatever the existential question was. Ultimately, the search for truth is pursued in order to attain peace of mind. People who come to this website and other non-duality websites want to see the Big Picture and understand what's going on because the dualistic consensus paradigm is intuited to be flawed in some fundamental way. As it seems to be mind that conducts the search and is actually looking at possible solutions, it would not be surprising if it was mind that had the capacity to resonate with a solution felt to suit the particular character it served. This seems to be against all spiritual advise but I would not exclude that something as complex as the mind did have this capacity. If it is mind carrying out this service for the organism, the disissal of mind would be even more serious. But I suspect mind can appear to be limited to conceal that it is still operating to end the search. Tricky Monkey:) Yes, I agree that it happens via the mind (not the limited intellect but the mind in its broadest sense.) But what is the mind? The mind is Oneness mind-ing - so it’s never not Oneness be-ing Oneness. I don’t think that we need to invoke a (frankly supernatural) dimension of ‘beyond the mind’ which is responsible for this kind of breakthrough.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 22, 2020 9:07:14 GMT -5
As it seems to be mind that conducts the search and is actually looking at possible solutions, it would not be surprising if it was mind that had the capacity to resonate with a solution felt to suit the particular character it served. This seems to be against all spiritual advise but I would not exclude that something as complex as the mind did have this capacity. If it is mind carrying out this service for the organism, the disissal of mind would be even more serious. But I suspect mind can appear to be limited to conceal that it is still operating to end the search. Tricky Monkey:) Yes, I agree that it happens via the mind (not the limited intellect but the mind in its broadest sense.) But what is the mind? The mind is Oneness mind-ing - so it’s never not Oneness be-ing Oneness. I don’t think that we need to invoke a (frankly supernatural) dimension of ‘beyond the mind’ which is responsible for this kind of breakthrough. Yes, I should have written "beyond the intellect" to make the pointing clearer. Buddhist often use the term "Big Mind" to make a distinction between the intellect and the vast intelligence of Source.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 22, 2020 9:17:29 GMT -5
Ouch. I was wondering how the injury was going, missed if you wrote about losing it. Anyways, sounds similar is general structure to what the TAT people do when they meet. Have you considered pushing yourself with crutches or a prosthetic to get back moving again? Yes I'm down for another leg but delayed due to virus. Adusting ok with the massive support of the family. Thanks. Amit: I'm sorry to hear about your leg. Best wishes with whatever it takes to get back to your wilderness. The camp sounds cool.
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Post by shadowplay on Jun 22, 2020 9:54:43 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that it happens via the mind (not the limited intellect but the mind in its broadest sense.) But what is the mind? The mind is Oneness mind-ing - so it’s never not Oneness be-ing Oneness. I don’t think that we need to invoke a (frankly supernatural) dimension of ‘beyond the mind’ which is responsible for this kind of breakthrough. Yes, I should have written "beyond the intellect" to make the pointing clearer. Buddhist often use the term "Big Mind" to make a distinction between the intellect and the vast intelligence of Source. Yes, I wondered if that was what you meant. Mind is another one of those malleable terms which can mean different things in different contexts.
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Post by amit on Jun 22, 2020 10:14:33 GMT -5
Yes I'm down for another leg but delayed due to virus. Adusting ok with the massive support of the family. Thanks. Amit: I'm sorry to hear about your leg. Best wishes with whatever it takes to get back to your wilderness. The camp sounds cool. Thanks ZD.
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Post by amit on Jun 22, 2020 10:23:05 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that it happens via the mind (not the limited intellect but the mind in its broadest sense.) But what is the mind? The mind is Oneness mind-ing - so it’s never not Oneness be-ing Oneness. I don’t think that we need to invoke a (frankly supernatural) dimension of ‘beyond the mind’ which is responsible for this kind of breakthrough. Yes, I should have written "beyond the intellect" to make the pointing clearer. Buddhist often use the term "Big Mind" to make a distinction between the intellect and the vast intelligence of Source. Yes. It may be that resonance is reaization. We use different terms but cannot actually experience the experience of the other.
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