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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 5:03:29 GMT -5
We are analyzing the history so we can't find some kind of concrete evidence instead we can try to find which of them are more reliable. Whether some one else has written the letters of Paul in the name of Paul is not under analysis now. We assume the letter which proclaimed to have written by Paul is his letter and also we assume because these writing dated back to 48AD-52AD and also Paul has died on 65 AD. There are seven epistles attributed to Paul that critical scholars agree are most likely actually written by him: 1Thessalonians, Philippians, Philemon, 1Corinthians, Galatians, 2Corinthians and Romans. The others that are attributed to him are most likely pseudepigraphical; i.e. claimed to be by him, but almost certainly written later by someone else who was trying to claim his authority. Critical scholars agree here that it's written by Paul but they do not know whether some body else has written in the name of Paul and you know nobody can know too.
Gospel of Thomas was started on early first century but ended at mid of second century and also this book highly deviated from the first century teaching.
You see, we are reading and trying to understand the books which were written by 2000 years ago. So It's tough to understand which one is correct and which one is wrong, but my observation is and my interest lies on how teaching deviates from first century to second century and to the third century and also how this small sect named Christians became world wide known religion after Theodosis The Roman Empire announces Christianity to be the official religion and banned paganism. I am reading the first century writings, very early writings are of paul(50AD) in which he considers Jesus as a preexisting celestial being who born for normal parent via sexual intercourse and he died for human's sin and rose again to take the selected people to heaven. And then Mark comes on the way(70AD), he doesn't believe Jesus as a celestial being who preexisted instead as a normal person who was announced as son of God at his baptism and then rest are all same like why he crucified and raised. And then at 80AD, Luke and Matthew writes a different story(see how story deviates), they both say that Jesus was directly Impregnated by Holyspirit without the help of human Father, they writes this because they have to make him son of God. Paul is not in the need of this story because he believes in preexisting son of God(though he became Christ at this resurrection). And then John came at 90AD, his opening passage goes into some other level like word was god and thomas called him at the end 'my lord and my God'.
If you watch it carefully, these stories are deviating while the time moves. But one thing remains same in all these first century writings was Jesus was a son of God who died for sin's of the world and resurrected no where it says Jesus is God but later books started to say some other story which includes the books of Thomas so it's not under the consideration.
the question as to why these four Gospel's are chosen? there were 20 gospels were around at that time, but these four are circulation for the longest and very early writings.
Your knowledge on the biblical origins far exceeds mine, as it's just not a topic I've ever devoted much attention to, so it's interesting to read your take, thanks. The philosophy that attempts to explain who Jesus was didn't interest me when I wasn't involved in practicing Christianity, and it doesn't really interest me all that much now - this is because the only way I could ever really set foot in a church was to question everything that I thought I believed in the first place. In reviewing some of the material that's been written about the "Gnostics", none of it seems to me to comport with the underlying message in the gospel of Thomas, and I'll leave you with yet another repetition of an alternate opinion as to why what's in the Bible was chosen for it: it fit the political and social needs of the men who were crafting a state religion. Since the book-burning and murder involving the Gnostics is part of the histories you rely on, you can't really be sure about any of the dates those histories report about them. One ironic point is that the guys who argued at Nicea were from Egypt, and Christianity ultimately didn't last there. While I can't discount every facet of Christian philosophy, it seems to me that "Jesus survives" at least as much in spite of that philosophy as because of it. The Catholics have a form of the mass where we all sing a song after communion that goes: "Jesus, how I thank you, for your goodness and your grace, for your presence in this place". If there's anything that can be taken literally about Christianity, it's that .. presence. If you're looking for a reason that Christianity spread and endured as it did, I'd advise looking there. ok
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 6, 2020 9:16:51 GMT -5
The seven last words of Christ. They represent the seven chakras. And their meaning.
1.1 1. Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.(root chakra) " Root chakra—Mūlādhāra is the chakra of stability, security, and our basic needs. The root chakra is comprised of whatever grounds you to stability in your life. This includes your basic needs such as food, water, shelter, safety, as well as your emotional needs of interconnection, and being fearless. "
1.2 2. Today you will be with me in paradise.(sacral chakra) " The sacral chakra helps cultivate flexibility and adaptability. This empowers you to move on, accept change, and transform. When balanced, the sacral chakra allows you to be passionate, creative, and sensual while connecting with your feelings and emotions. "
1.3 3. Woman, behold, thy son! Son, behold, thy mother!(solar plexus chakra) " The solar plexus chakra helps grow your confidence and vitality. This empowers you to follow your true path and create the life you want. When balanced, the solar plexus chakra allows you to seize your personal power, develop your authentic self, and take responsibility for your life. "
1.4 4. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (heart chakra) " The heart chakra, or Anahata, deals with unconditional love and emotional power. At its core, this chakra is emotional and propels us to enhance our emotional development. The heart embodies a gentle wisdom that teaches us the ways of love and compassion." 1.5 5. I thirst.( throat chakra) " Having the Throat chakra in balance enables you to speak with confidence and have a clear expression of self. Sitting between the heart and the head chakra points this energy centre is the connector between thought and emotion. It is the gateway for you to express in a proactive and compassionate way."
1.6 6. It is finished. (third eye chakra) " The third eye is often associated with religious visions, clairvoyance, the ability to observe chakras and auras, precognition, and out-of-body experiences. People who are claimed to have the capacity to utilize their third eyes are sometimes known as seers. "
1.7 7. Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(crown chakra) " The Crown Chakra is our connection with Divinity; it is the portal through which the life energy enters our body. Without this energy, human beings cannot function properly and tend to feel disconnected with self and others."
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 7, 2020 0:15:54 GMT -5
Jivanmukta - Liberation
" A Jivanmukta is a liberated sage. He is released even while living. He lives in the world, but he is not of the world. He always revels in the eternal bliss of the Supreme Self. He is Ishvara (God) Himself. He is a God on earth.
The Jivanmukta or full-blown Jnani (a person with full wisdom) is full of pure love, compassion, mercy, exquisite gentleness, and hidden power and strength. Love and lustre shine through his brilliant eyes.
The Jivanmukta has not a bit of selfish interest in him and is absolutely free from worries, difficulties, troubles, tribulations, sorrows, and anxieties under all circumstances. Even when pains and the rest attaching themselves to his body exhibit themselves on his face, his mind never writhes under them and their antithesis. He is not a slave of his moods; he is ever cheerful and peaceful. His higher excellences have been perfectly unfolded; all divine attributes are fully awakened in him. Every one of his weaknesses and limitations is burnt in toto. He shines in his own pristine glory, in his own essential nature of divine consciousness. He radiates peace and joy everywhere.
The true greatness of a realised Yogi is indescribable. His eyes are serene and steady, his actions perfect and holy, his speech sweet and short, inspiring and impressive. His gait is magnanimous, his touch purifying; his looks are merciful, gestures illuminating. He is omniscient; he has intuitive transcendental knowledge and clear insight into the very heart of all things and beings. You will experience a deep sense of peace and harmony, great elevation and inspiration, in his presence. " -Sri Swami Sivananda
Jesus Post-Jivanmukta
Luke 24:13-35 New International Version (NIV) On the Road to Emmaus 13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread."
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Post by zendancer on Mar 7, 2020 3:13:29 GMT -5
This whole line of argument about what the words in an old book might mean reminds me of the challenge I often pose to all adherents of any religion--If you were on a desert island with no books of any kind and no people, could the truth be found? The answer is "Yes" because the truth can be found by looking inside oneself and realizing what is at the core of all religions. If a serious seeker who had never heard of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Shankara, Ramana, Kabir, Rumi, Mahavira, Dogen, Rinzai, etc, and had never seen a copy of the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, etc, it would still be possible to wake up and realize what's going on and what's looking out of all creature's eyes.
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 7, 2020 4:35:51 GMT -5
This whole line of argument about what the words in an old book might mean reminds me of the challenge I often pose to all adherents of any religion--If you were on a desert island with no books of any kind and no people, could the truth be found? The answer is "Yes" because the truth can be found by looking inside oneself and realizing what is at the core of all religions. If a serious seeker who had never heard of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Shankara, Ramana, Kabir, Rumi, Mahavira, Dogen, Rinzai, etc, and had never seen a copy of the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, etc, it would still be possible to wake up and realize what's going on and what's looking out of all creature's eyes. That question won't apply if you were already a devotee of Jesus /Krsna prior to your being placed in a remote, deserted island without any religious books to read. If you're an atheist seeking the truth from within you will find nothing because God won't allow you. But if you do, it's simply because you read the Bible /Bhagavad - Gita. If you want to wake up, you do meditation, correct? And there's a process to that. Suddenly waking up without undergoing a process of how to wake up is a shot in a million. Like winning the Lotto jackpot. So, If I were to find myself in an isolated place without any material helping me wake up, finding the truth is akin to getting the corona virus in Antartica. You're either lucky or unlucky.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 7, 2020 9:33:52 GMT -5
This whole line of argument about what the words in an old book might mean reminds me of the challenge I often pose to all adherents of any religion--If you were on a desert island with no books of any kind and no people, could the truth be found? The answer is "Yes" because the truth can be found by looking inside oneself and realizing what is at the core of all religions. If a serious seeker who had never heard of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Shankara, Ramana, Kabir, Rumi, Mahavira, Dogen, Rinzai, etc, and had never seen a copy of the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, etc, it would still be possible to wake up and realize what's going on and what's looking out of all creature's eyes. That question won't apply if you were already a devotee of Jesus /Krsna prior to your being placed in a remote, deserted island without any religious books to read. If you're an atheist seeking the truth from within you will find nothing because God won't allow you. But if you do, it's simply because you read the Bible /Bhagavad - Gita. If you want to wake up, you do meditation, correct? And there's a process to that. Suddenly waking up without undergoing a process of how to wake up is a shot in a million. Like winning the Lotto jackpot. So, If I were to find myself in an isolated place without any material helping me wake up, finding the truth is akin to getting the corona virus in Antartica. You're either lucky or unlucky. That's true, but my point is that arguing over the meaning of various words is not very helpful. The only verse in the Bible that clearly points in the right direction is, ""Be still..." IOW, if you want to know the truth, get out of your head. Thinking divides; silence unifies.
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Post by krsnaraja on Mar 7, 2020 11:17:29 GMT -5
That question won't apply if you were already a devotee of Jesus /Krsna prior to your being placed in a remote, deserted island without any religious books to read. If you're an atheist seeking the truth from within you will find nothing because God won't allow you. But if you do, it's simply because you read the Bible /Bhagavad - Gita. If you want to wake up, you do meditation, correct? And there's a process to that. Suddenly waking up without undergoing a process of how to wake up is a shot in a million. Like winning the Lotto jackpot. So, If I were to find myself in an isolated place without any material helping me wake up, finding the truth is akin to getting the corona virus in Antartica. You're either lucky or unlucky. That's true, but my point is that arguing over the meaning of various words is not very helpful. The only verse in the Bible that clearly points in the right direction is, ""Be still..." IOW, if you want to know the truth, get out of your head. Thinking divides; silence unifies. The path of truth -- If there is silence when you are with someone, there is the possibility of love. — If there is silence when you are at work, there is the possibility of purpose, mastery, attainment. — If there is silence in a relationship, there is possibility of fulfillment. — If there is silence when you are really seeing something, there is the possibility of beauty. — If there is silence when you are grappling with an idea, there is the possibility of insight. — If there is silence when you are somewhere, there is the possibility of home. Whenever there's silence in you, that is your path. There is no tension there. No resistance. Your mind is silent, because your spirit accepts that movement. Now you have understood, at last, because you have lived the simplest truth of all. You are your path. When there is silence, the path is in you. Your path is all paths. An endless flow into purer and purer being. In complete silence you hear the sound of your heart beat. Now listen. What does your heart say? It says, "Lub.. Gud.. Lub...Gud.. Lub.. Gud." That's the path of truth in you.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 7, 2020 12:51:33 GMT -5
That's true, but my point is that arguing over the meaning of various words is not very helpful. The only verse in the Bible that clearly points in the right direction is, ""Be still..." IOW, if you want to know the truth, get out of your head. Thinking divides; silence unifies. The path of truth -- If there is silence when you are with someone, there is the possibility of love. — If there is silence when you are at work, there is the possibility of purpose, mastery, attainment. — If there is silence in a relationship, there is possibility of fulfillment. — If there is silence when you are really seeing something, there is the possibility of beauty. — If there is silence when you are grappling with an idea, there is the possibility of insight. — If there is silence when you are somewhere, there is the possibility of home. Whenever there's silence in you, that is your path. There is no tension there. No resistance. Your mind is silent, because your spirit accepts that movement. Now you have understood, at last, because you have lived the simplest truth of all. You are your path. When there is silence, the path is in you. Your path is all paths. An endless flow into purer and purer being. In complete silence you hear the sound of your heart beat. Now listen. What does your heart say? It says, "Lub.. Gud.. Lub...Gud.. Lub.. Gud." That's the path of truth in you. Yes.
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Post by laughter on Mar 7, 2020 15:58:26 GMT -5
Your knowledge on the biblical origins far exceeds mine, as it's just not a topic I've ever devoted much attention to, so it's interesting to read your take, thanks. The philosophy that attempts to explain who Jesus was didn't interest me when I wasn't involved in practicing Christianity, and it doesn't really interest me all that much now - this is because the only way I could ever really set foot in a church was to question everything that I thought I believed in the first place. In reviewing some of the material that's been written about the "Gnostics", none of it seems to me to comport with the underlying message in the gospel of Thomas, and I'll leave you with yet another repetition of an alternate opinion as to why what's in the Bible was chosen for it: it fit the political and social needs of the men who were crafting a state religion. Since the book-burning and murder involving the Gnostics is part of the histories you rely on, you can't really be sure about any of the dates those histories report about them. One ironic point is that the guys who argued at Nicea were from Egypt, and Christianity ultimately didn't last there. While I can't discount every facet of Christian philosophy, it seems to me that "Jesus survives" at least as much in spite of that philosophy as because of it. The Catholics have a form of the mass where we all sing a song after communion that goes: "Jesus, how I thank you, for your goodness and your grace, for your presence in this place". If there's anything that can be taken literally about Christianity, it's that .. presence. If you're looking for a reason that Christianity spread and endured as it did, I'd advise looking there. Jeshua's survival is as much dependent upon his will as it is upon humanity's love for Him. Point taken, but this seems to me to implicate all the philisophical debates about the nature of Jesus because it begs the question of, "whose will?".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 16:11:02 GMT -5
Jeshua's survival is as much dependent upon his will as it is upon humanity's love for Him. Point taken, but this seems to me to implicate all the philisophical debates about the nature of Jesus because it begs the question of, "whose will?". The nature of Jesus is Love and as Love is the only law. Then his will must be equal to His law.
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Post by laughter on Mar 7, 2020 16:29:27 GMT -5
Point taken, but this seems to me to implicate all the philisophical debates about the nature of Jesus because it begs the question of, "whose will?". The nature of Jesus is Love and as Love is the only law. Then his will must be equal to His law. In the silence of a mass or individual prayer, it all adds up .. or at least the mind can be tricked into not thinking about the equation for a moment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 17:42:42 GMT -5
The nature of Jesus is Love and as Love is the only law. Then his will must be equal to His law. In the silence of a mass or individual prayer, it all adds up .. or at least the mind can be tricked into not thinking about the equation for a moment. What is it, to whom the adding up happens?
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Post by Reefs on Mar 8, 2020 2:00:07 GMT -5
This whole line of argument about what the words in an old book might mean reminds me of the challenge I often pose to all adherents of any religion--If you were on a desert island with no books of any kind and no people, could the truth be found? The answer is "Yes" because the truth can be found by looking inside oneself and realizing what is at the core of all religions. If a serious seeker who had never heard of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Shankara, Ramana, Kabir, Rumi, Mahavira, Dogen, Rinzai, etc, and had never seen a copy of the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, etc, it would still be possible to wake up and realize what's going on and what's looking out of all creature's eyes. Yes, focus on the essence, not the exact words. Words can and do change meanings over time. Some dictionaries actually show these (now obsolete) archaic meanings in their list of definitions. I think some passages in the Bible (and other scriptures of other religions) have been grossly misinterpreted by applying the modern reading of certain key words. The more prominent examples are "the meek shall inherit the earth" and "turning the other cheek"...
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2020 3:31:16 GMT -5
In the silence of a mass or individual prayer, it all adds up .. or at least the mind can be tricked into not thinking about the equation for a moment. What is it, to whom the adding up happens? The same self that would inquire as to whose will it is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 5:03:57 GMT -5
What is it, to whom the adding up happens? The same self that would inquire as to whose will it is. Which, it cannot be denied is the very substance of the beggar of questions about the nature of Jeshua and his mortal lives.
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