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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 16:24:54 GMT -5
You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset . You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are . You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset . Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception . You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness . You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of . It’s that simple .. You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do .. Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way . Please answer me ..There is only one thingless thing here, and it is the only thing that is aware. All humans are one-with THAT (whether they realize it or not). As SDP pointed out, a baby sees the world and responds to it without reflective thought. The same is true for any adults who have found the intellect's "off" button. I agree with Tolle's statement, "One of the greatest attainments is freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I began meditating because of stress caused by incessant thinking, and eventually the body/mind organism became able to remain silently aware of the world without having to think about it. If you have no reference for what's being pointed to, then let's drop the subject or agree to disagree. Yes, but if one takes oneself to-be that which thinks, the Thinker, which tenka seems to, that's sad. But yes, I give up. No words as response came from reading his reply. His words had zero relationship to what I wrote. But that's OK, it is what it is. |
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Post by roydop on Dec 7, 2019 17:24:25 GMT -5
As Zazeniac correctly explained, there is a difference between mind talk and direct sensory perception. THIS (what we are) is intelligent, and in the form of humans most of what the body does is handled subconsciously and reflective thought is not necessary. We learn to tie our shoes or ride a bicycle when we are young, and no thoughts are necessary for learning those tasks. It's a case of "see and do." The learning is direct. As adults, we don't have to think about tying our shoes or riding a bicycle any more than we did when we were learning those tasks. In fact, most adults are thinking all kinds of other unrelated thoughts while tying their shoes. By persistently shifting attention away from thoughts, mind talk (reflective thinking) can totally cease. When all mind talk ceases, there remains only awareness, intelligence, and subconscious processing based on past conditioning and learning. IOW, there are two different kinds of knowing--(1) direct knowing or (2) reflective/intellectual/discursive/symbolic/linguistic/imaginative knowing. Zen and Advaita people are primarily interested in "what is" rather than meta-realities ABOUT "what is" created by imagination. Zen refers to a silent mind as "no mind" because reflective thought is either totally absent or substantially absent. In Ramana's case I suspect that reflective thinking was totally absent. When there is no reflective thinking, there are no verbal mental thoughts ABOUT what's happening. Everything is direct and obvious, and the body functions in total silence. No idea of a witness is present as well as any other idea. You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset . You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are . You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset . Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception . You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness . You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of . It’s that simple .. You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do .. Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way . Please answer me ..One may be aware of another's "energy" free of words/thoughts. There is no need for, or benefit to, sympathy or empathy. There is no suffering in your world if you do not suffer. |
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 7, 2019 20:57:16 GMT -5
So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face . Very easily. It happens all the time. Are you saying that every time you see a tree you are thinking, this is a tree? If that was the case life would be impossible. Imagine having labeled conscious thoughts about every single subject you saw as you were sitting in a car or train looking at a vast panorama of objects passing your field of vision very quickly while at the same time thinking about what you had to do at work that day, paying the bills, remembering to get some food in for the evening while thinking, traffic light, people, young child, old man, lamppost, bus, sidewalk, road, sky, tree, another tree here comes another the traffic light, what's that funny person doing, you would seize up and stop functioning if you had a conscious thought about everything you perceived. I remember reading about a study about what people notice and what they remember afterwards and it showed how little we actually take in and retain. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 7, 2019 22:13:26 GMT -5
So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face . Very easily. It happens all the time. Are you saying that every time you see a tree you are thinking, this is a tree? If that was the case life would be impossible. Imagine having labeled conscious thoughts about every single subject you saw as you were sitting in a car or train looking at a vast panorama of objects passing your field of vision very quickly while at the same time thinking about what you had to do at work that day, paying the bills, remembering to get some food in for the evening while thinking, traffic light, people, young child, old man, lamppost, bus, sidewalk, road, sky, tree, another tree here comes another the traffic light, what's that funny person doing, you would seize up and stop functioning if you had a conscious thought about everything you perceived. I remember reading about a study about what people notice and what they remember afterwards and it showed how little we actually take in and retain. I think Tenka equates the word "thought" with "perception," so whatever is perceived is a thought from his POV. This is a rather strange idea because that would mean that while turning one's head and scanning one's field of vision, there could be an infinite number of thoughts corresponding to each tiny fragment of the visual field. Because attention doesn't focus on specific "things" within the visual field while moving one's eyes, it would seem odd to have this kind of understanding. His elephant is clearly a distinction within the visual field rather than a perception because perception involves all that is seen (which would include the ground, the sky, the nearby trees, etc). I can only assume that he doesn't agree with the general concept of what a distinction is in the gestalt sense of figure and background, nor the way most of us understand this issue. Perhaps he will clarify his understanding in this regard. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 4:44:58 GMT -5
You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset . You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are . You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset . Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception . You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness . You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of . It’s that simple .. You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do .. Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way . Please answer me ..There is only one thingless thing here, and it is the only thing that is aware. All humans are one-with THAT (whether they realize it or not). As SDP pointed out, a baby sees the world and responds to it without reflective thought. The same is true for any adults who have found the intellect's "off" button. I agree with Tolle's statement, "One of the greatest attainments is freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I began meditating because of stress caused by incessant thinking, and eventually the body/mind organism became able to remain silently aware of the world without having to think about it. If you have no reference for what's being pointed to, then let's drop the subject or agree to disagree. All I am asking is how can you be aware of the suffering of another for example and not have a thought of it . I haven't had a straight answer . It's impossible to be mindful of something mindful and say there is the transcendence of mind . Who/m or what is aware of the suffering of the mind when the mind has been transcended . It makes no sense at all . I am happy to leave it this time as I did the last time not having a clear explanation of how it is possible .. Your theory about not thinking and thought isn't correct, but as we both know, your idea of what constitutes a thought doesn't seem to make sense to me either and I have given examples to explain why . The fact that I haven't had a clear answer gives me the impression that you can't answer it based upon your model . That's okay, tho, I am still waiting for answers from a few peeps here on the forums to key questions made . |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 4:54:34 GMT -5
I would say free of thinking it is quite possible but one requires to know what constitutes a thought . Running around naked not thinking about the consequences of one's actions doesn't equate to transcendence . It solely means you are running around not thinking about what you are doing, but where there is awareness of the world, there is perception of the world and there is the thought of it . It's not a headless chicken scenario .. It's like the duck-bunny:  What's helpful is lopez' and other's idea of "conscious" vs. "unconscious". It's possible for thought-free action to be done in crystal clarity, completely conscious, and yet, absolutely free of any self-referential thought or emotion, and as ZD says, with zero internal dialog. Yes, I acknowledge that "thought-free action" can also evoke the notion of what you allude to with the headless chicken metaphor. It's a headless duckbunny.  Some peeps drunk out of their minds don't remember much about anything regarding how they got home, some might suggest that they had transcended mind and the mind-body has the intelligence to navigate through the on coming traffic, jump over fences, have a fight with a group of skinheads and eat a takeaway and put their PJ's on before bed . You see the mind-body cannot functions in these ways without the spirit being present .. when the spirit leaves the body permanently the mind-body dies so to speak, this is why you don't have the walking dead as a reality even though some entertain the theory that there are potential non perceiving zombies out there .. If the spirit is present and there is awareness of the world then there is a thought of it, whether one remembers it or not is irrelevant . To be fighting skinheads and eating kebabs one has not transcended mind .. The mind-body doesn't know kung fu and doesn't know how to put the microwave on .. All these patterns of behaviour and conditioning and intelligence won't help anyone once the spirit has left the body .. If there is transcendence there is no awareness of the world or the mind-body .. The mind-body doesn't carry on fighting or separating the chilli sauce off from the chips .. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 4:59:18 GMT -5
There is only one thingless thing here, and it is the only thing that is aware. All humans are one-with THAT (whether they realize it or not). As SDP pointed out, a baby sees the world and responds to it without reflective thought. The same is true for any adults who have found the intellect's "off" button. I agree with Tolle's statement, "One of the greatest attainments is freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I began meditating because of stress caused by incessant thinking, and eventually the body/mind organism became able to remain silently aware of the world without having to think about it. If you have no reference for what's being pointed to, then let's drop the subject or agree to disagree. Yes, but if one takes oneself to-be that which thinks, the Thinker, which tenka seems to, that's sad. But yes, I give up. No words as response came from reading his reply. His words had zero relationship to what I wrote. But that's OK, it is what it is. There is only what you are Pilgrim . I don't separate what I AM from the thinker, the doer, or the witness or whatever words suits.. You are welcome to separate and divide if you like .. I would say this is why there is confusion, it's the neti neti approach .. I heard someone say that Ramana wasn't a fan of neti neti because there is too much attention had of what you are not rather than what you are .. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 5:05:03 GMT -5
You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset . You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are . You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset . Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception . You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness . You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of . It’s that simple .. You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do .. Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way . Please answer me ..One may be aware of another's "energy" free of words/thoughts. There is no need for, or benefit to, sympathy or empathy. There is no suffering in your world if you do not suffer. How can you be aware of another without there being the thought of another . There is so much confusion had here regarding what is a thought and what thinking is . I can have thought of my sister without thinking about how she might be feeling or what she is doing . You can't acknowledge or register the awareness of something without having a thought of something . Awareness and thought in a mindful environment cannot be separated . The mind facilitates I AM awareness . This is reflected in a thought of I AM . |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 5:24:27 GMT -5
So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face . Very easily. It happens all the time. Are you saying that every time you see a tree you are thinking, this is a tree? If that was the case life would be impossible. Imagine having labeled conscious thoughts about every single subject you saw as you were sitting in a car or train looking at a vast panorama of objects passing your field of vision very quickly while at the same time thinking about what you had to do at work that day, paying the bills, remembering to get some food in for the evening while thinking, traffic light, people, young child, old man, lamppost, bus, sidewalk, road, sky, tree, another tree here comes another the traffic light, what's that funny person doing, you would seize up and stop functioning if you had a conscious thought about everything you perceived. I remember reading about a study about what people notice and what they remember afterwards and it showed how little we actually take in and retain. Your not the first and you won't be the last Satch to not understand what I AM saying .. Peeps need to understand the difference between entertaining a thought and thinking about that thought . A thought constitutes awareness of the tree . You can't be aware of the tree and not have recognition of it . A baby might not know what a tree is but a baby doesn't go and sit their back up against it, or tries to pull an apple from it's branch .. All this floaty stuff, skipping through the meadows not thinking, pretending to have transcended mind is silly .. Like said before, the barefooted happy clapper skips through the grass not thinking, but they have one eye out for the broken glass and the dogs poop .. You need a thought that there is a world to skip in, you need a thought that the ground beneath your feet will hold your weight .. You don't have to have a conversation in your head about how much you weigh or how many skips you can do before you get tired . Where there is I AM awareness in reflection of this world, there is a thought of I AM of this world . |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 5:37:53 GMT -5
Very easily. It happens all the time. Are you saying that every time you see a tree you are thinking, this is a tree? If that was the case life would be impossible. Imagine having labeled conscious thoughts about every single subject you saw as you were sitting in a car or train looking at a vast panorama of objects passing your field of vision very quickly while at the same time thinking about what you had to do at work that day, paying the bills, remembering to get some food in for the evening while thinking, traffic light, people, young child, old man, lamppost, bus, sidewalk, road, sky, tree, another tree here comes another the traffic light, what's that funny person doing, you would seize up and stop functioning if you had a conscious thought about everything you perceived. I remember reading about a study about what people notice and what they remember afterwards and it showed how little we actually take in and retain. This is a rather strange idea because that would mean that while turning one's head and scanning one's field of vision, there could be an infinite number of thoughts corresponding to each tiny fragment of the visual field. Because attention doesn't focus on specific "things" within the visual field while moving one's eyes, it would seem odd to have this kind of understanding. His elephant is clearly a distinction within the visual field rather than a perception because perception involves all that is seen (which would include the ground, the sky, the nearby trees, etc). I can only assume that he doesn't agree with the general concept of what a distinction is in the gestalt sense of figure and background, nor the way most of us understand this issue. Perhaps he will clarify his understanding in this regard. Yes this is correct, this is why you cannot be aware of the sun burning your face when you have transcended mind / thought . There has to be awareness of I AM, the sun, and suffering in order to make sense of the experience. You suggest there is the transcendence of mind while there is awareness of I AM, the sun and suffering . If you are aware of what I have given as an example, the awareness, the perception constitutes a thought .. Your argument is that the mind-body is intelligent and it makes no sense because like said to laffy there cannot be just the mind-body present fighting off skin heads when there has been transcendence of the mind lol . I have spoken about the spirit being present when there is experience of the mind-body .. The spirit transcends mind when the mind. is transcended so when the spirit is no longer of the body there is no kung fu fighting going on with the mind-body intelligence .. You may dismiss the whole spirit aspect again that's up to you . |
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 8, 2019 5:41:56 GMT -5
Very easily. It happens all the time. Are you saying that every time you see a tree you are thinking, this is a tree? If that was the case life would be impossible. Imagine having labeled conscious thoughts about every single subject you saw as you were sitting in a car or train looking at a vast panorama of objects passing your field of vision very quickly while at the same time thinking about what you had to do at work that day, paying the bills, remembering to get some food in for the evening while thinking, traffic light, people, young child, old man, lamppost, bus, sidewalk, road, sky, tree, another tree here comes another the traffic light, what's that funny person doing, you would seize up and stop functioning if you had a conscious thought about everything you perceived. I remember reading about a study about what people notice and what they remember afterwards and it showed how little we actually take in and retain. Your not the first and you won't be the last Satch to not understand what I AM saying .. Peeps need to understand the difference between entertaining a thought and thinking about that thought . A thought constitutes awareness of the tree . You can't be aware of the tree and not have recognition of it . A baby might not know what a tree is but a baby doesn't go and sit their back up against it, or tries to pull an apple from it's branch .. All this floaty stuff, skipping through the meadows not thinking, pretending to have transcended mind is silly .. Like said before, the barefooted happy clapper skips through the grass not thinking, but they have one eye out for the broken glass and the dogs poop .. You need a thought that there is a world to skip in, you need a thought that the ground beneath your feet will hold your weight .. You don't have to have a conversation in your head about how much you weigh or how many skips you can do before you get tired . Where there is I AM awareness in reflection of this world, there is a thought of I AM of this world . If you want to say that recognition of a tree is the same as thinking of a tree then that's okay with me. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 5:50:21 GMT -5
Your not the first and you won't be the last Satch to not understand what I AM saying .. Peeps need to understand the difference between entertaining a thought and thinking about that thought . A thought constitutes awareness of the tree . You can't be aware of the tree and not have recognition of it . A baby might not know what a tree is but a baby doesn't go and sit their back up against it, or tries to pull an apple from it's branch .. All this floaty stuff, skipping through the meadows not thinking, pretending to have transcended mind is silly .. Like said before, the barefooted happy clapper skips through the grass not thinking, but they have one eye out for the broken glass and the dogs poop .. You need a thought that there is a world to skip in, you need a thought that the ground beneath your feet will hold your weight .. You don't have to have a conversation in your head about how much you weigh or how many skips you can do before you get tired . Where there is I AM awareness in reflection of this world, there is a thought of I AM of this world . If you want to say that recognition of a tree is the same as thinking of a tree then that's okay with me. Again, I am speaking about the thought itself, not thinking . Thinking about the tree is different to having thought of a tree . Thinking about the tree entertains more than the initial thought . All this chitter chatter of the mind isn't present when there is just a thought . Recognition of there being a tree is not thinking about the tree in a chitter chatter way . The happy skipping clapper stops skipping when the grass ends and the road starts . It's because there is a thought of the road compared to the grass . There doesn't have to be a running dialogue had in regards to what the differences are between the grass and the road . For some reason some believe that you can transcend the mind and carryon skipping and making decisions to stop where the road starts .. This is solely down to the theory that the mind-body has the intelligence to do all these things while some aspect of self has transcended mind . I am not even sure what is suggested to have transcended and what remains lol, it makes no sense to me . The mind-body cannot remain functioning in ways that I have described, if all that is present is the mind-body . |
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 8, 2019 5:59:34 GMT -5
If you want to say that recognition of a tree is the same as thinking of a tree then that's okay with me. Again, I am speaking about the thought itself, not thinking . Thinking about the tree is different to having thought of a tree . Thinking about the tree entertains more than the initial thought . All this chitter chatter of the mind isn't present when there is just a thought . Recognition of there being a tree is not thinking about the tree in a chitter chatter way . The happy skipping clapper stops skipping when the grass ends and the road starts . It's because there is a thought of the road compared to the grass . There doesn't have to be a running dialogue had in regards to what the differences are between the grass and the road . For some reason some believe that you can transcend the mind and carryon skipping and making decisions to stop where the road starts .. This is solely down to the theory that the mind-body has the intelligence to do all these things while some aspect of self has transcended mind . I am not even sure what has transcended and what hasn't lol, it makes no sense to me . For me it's very simple. When I look at a tree there is recognition that it is a tree. That obviously involves some mental activity concerned with recognition. As I look at the tree I can start thinking about trees I might be reminded of a similar tree stuck in my memory somewhere. I might get the urge to climb the tree or I might think I'll go and pick an apple from the tree. I might be not looking at a tree and I'm thinking about trees. |
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Post by tenka on Dec 8, 2019 6:49:27 GMT -5
Again, I am speaking about the thought itself, not thinking . Thinking about the tree is different to having thought of a tree . Thinking about the tree entertains more than the initial thought . All this chitter chatter of the mind isn't present when there is just a thought . Recognition of there being a tree is not thinking about the tree in a chitter chatter way . The happy skipping clapper stops skipping when the grass ends and the road starts . It's because there is a thought of the road compared to the grass . There doesn't have to be a running dialogue had in regards to what the differences are between the grass and the road . For some reason some believe that you can transcend the mind and carryon skipping and making decisions to stop where the road starts .. This is solely down to the theory that the mind-body has the intelligence to do all these things while some aspect of self has transcended mind . I am not even sure what has transcended and what hasn't lol, it makes no sense to me . For me it's very simple. When I look at a tree there is recognition that it is a tree. That obviously involves some mental activity concerned with recognition. As I look at the tree I can start thinking about trees I might be reminded of a similar tree stuck in my memory somewhere. I might get the urge to climb the tree or I might think I'll go and pick an apple from the tree. I might be not looking at a tree and I'm thinking about trees. Yes it is very simple for there is recognition had, and recognition requires, mindful perception, self awareness and thoughtful knowings via the intellect . For there to be the suggestion that mind has been transcended in these instances when this recognition is ongoing / present is incorrect . It doesn't matter if there is recognition of a tree, a road or there being a burning sensation had on their face from the sun, one can't separate, perception from thought from awareness from recognition .. The mind-body cannot perform and function and make decisions by itself while there is no self awareness present and as said there cannot be self awareness present and not be a thought of that had in reflection of what is perceived . |
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 8, 2019 6:58:52 GMT -5
For me it's very simple. When I look at a tree there is recognition that it is a tree. That obviously involves some mental activity concerned with recognition. As I look at the tree I can start thinking about trees I might be reminded of a similar tree stuck in my memory somewhere. I might get the urge to climb the tree or I might think I'll go and pick an apple from the tree. I might be not looking at a tree and I'm thinking about trees. Yes it is very simple for there is recognition had, and recognition requires, mindful perception, self awareness and thoughtful knowings via the intellect . For there to be the suggestion that mind has been transcended in these instances when this recognition is ongoing / present is incorrect . It doesn't matter if there is recognition of a tree, a road or there being a burning sensation had on their face from the sun, one can't separate, perception from thought from awareness from recognition .. The mind-body cannot perform and function and make decisions by itself while there is no self awareness present and as said there cannot be self awareness present and not be a thought of that had in reflection of what is perceived . Yes I agree. You don't have to have consciously labeled thoughts but there does have to be recognition, particularly if you are engaged in some activity like driving. If I'm driving I put my foot on the brake pedal because I know that's what it is and that's where it is. I don't stick my foot out of the window when I want to stop. At the same time I don't need to have an internal conversation with myself where I hear words in my head saying, "I must push down on the brake pedal now". Obviously that doesn't happen. It's done very unconsciously but it still requires a mind and awareness. |
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