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Post by Reefs on Feb 12, 2019 9:55:41 GMT -5
Right. I don' know what your definition of 'God' is but all we can do is point because presence - like anything else that refers to some 'thing' (or some 'nothing') that is prior to mind - can't be objectified. And the pointing is probably going to be a lot more successful if we point to what 'it' is not instead of what 'it' actually is. You can attempt to describe it but you won't be able to define it. So words are going to fail us here. It's more a state of functioning or state of being anyway. In fact, some would call it our natural state of being. It belongs to the absolute realm, yes. And what comes closest in describing presence (the way we mean it here) in the relative realm is probably flow. Since its quite difficult to understand or describe presence, its conceived that it has taken a form. The Supreme Personality of Godhead / Krishna has 65 transcendental qualities in fullness. They are as deep as the ocean. The extent of His qualities is inconceivable. Chaitanya Mahāprabhu briefly describes various qualities of Lord Krishna to Sanātana Gosvāmī in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, Chapter 23. These verses are also found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. CC Madhya 23.70 – Krishna, the supreme hero, has the most beautiful transcendental body. This body possesses all good features. It is radiant and very pleasing to the eyes. His body is powerful, strong and youthful. CC Madhya 23.71 — Krishna is the linguist of all wonderful languages. He is a truthful and very pleasing speaker. He is expert in speaking, and He is a very wise, learned scholar and a genius. CC Madhya 23.72 — Krishna is very expert in artistic enjoyment. He is highly cunning, expert, grateful and firmly determined in His vows. He knows how to deal according to time, person and country, and He sees through the scriptures and authoritative books. He is very clean and self-controlled. CC Madhya 23.73 — Lord Krishna is steady, His senses are controlled, and He is forgiving, grave and calm. He is also equal to all. Moreover, He is magnanimous, religious, chivalrous and kind. He is always respectful to respectable people. CC Madhya 23.74 — Krishna is very simple and liberal, He is humble and bashful, and He is the protector of the surrendered souls. He is very happy, and He is always the well-wisher of His devotees. He is all-auspicious, and He is submissive to love. CC Madhya 23.75 — Krishna is very influential and famous, and He is the object of attachment for everyone. He is the shelter of the good and the virtuous. He is attractive to the minds of women, and He is worshiped by everyone. He is very, very rich. CC Madhya 23.76 — Krishna is the Supreme, and He is always glorified as the Supreme Lord and controller. Thus all the previously mentioned transcendental qualities are in Him. The fifty qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead mentioned above are as deep as an ocean. In other words, they are difficult to fully comprehend. CC Madhya 23.77 These qualities are sometimes very minutely exhibited in living beings, but they are fully manifested in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ CC Madhya 23.78 — Apart from these fifty qualities, there are five other qualities found in the Supreme Personality of Godhead that are partially present in demigods like Śiva. CC Madhya 23.79-81 — ‘These qualities are (1) the Lord is always situated in His original position, (2) He is omniscient, (3) He is always fresh and youthful, (4) He is the concentrated form of eternity, knowledge and bliss, and (5) He is the possessor of all mystic perfection. There are another five qualities, which exist in the Vaikuṇṭha planets in Nārāyaṇa, the Lord of Lakṣmī. These qualities are also present in Krishna, but they are not present in demigods like Lord Śiva or in other living entities. These are (1) the Lord possesses inconceivable supreme power, (2) He generates innumerable universes from His body, (3) He is the original source of all incarnations, (4) He bestows salvation upon enemies He kills, and (5) He has the ability to attract exalted persons who are satisfied in themselves. Although these qualities are present in Nārāyaṇa, the dominating Deity of the Vaikuṇṭha planets, they are even more wonderfully present in Krishna. Now this would be a long list of examples of what 'it' is not, hehe.  If you want to get an idea of what I am talking about do some reading on flow experience. And then take what you've learned there as a pointer. Don't take it literally. Because presence is not an experience in the usual sense of the word, even though flow mostly is (unless it isn't - there are some borderline cases). We are talking about something very simple, immediate and intimate. Something that is always there. Closer than your own breath. No one can take it from you, and no one can give it to you. You cannot earn it and you cannot lose it. So don't try to turn this into a religion. That would be objectifying it which would mean losing sight of it. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 12, 2019 10:10:56 GMT -5
Since its quite difficult to understand or describe presence, its conceived that it has taken a form. The Supreme Personality of Godhead / Krishna has 65 transcendental qualities in fullness. They are as deep as the ocean. The extent of His qualities is inconceivable. Chaitanya Mahāprabhu briefly describes various qualities of Lord Krishna to Sanātana Gosvāmī in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, Chapter 23. These verses are also found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. CC Madhya 23.70 – Krishna, the supreme hero, has the most beautiful transcendental body. This body possesses all good features. It is radiant and very pleasing to the eyes. His body is powerful, strong and youthful. CC Madhya 23.71 — Krishna is the linguist of all wonderful languages. He is a truthful and very pleasing speaker. He is expert in speaking, and He is a very wise, learned scholar and a genius. CC Madhya 23.72 — Krishna is very expert in artistic enjoyment. He is highly cunning, expert, grateful and firmly determined in His vows. He knows how to deal according to time, person and country, and He sees through the scriptures and authoritative books. He is very clean and self-controlled. CC Madhya 23.73 — Lord Krishna is steady, His senses are controlled, and He is forgiving, grave and calm. He is also equal to all. Moreover, He is magnanimous, religious, chivalrous and kind. He is always respectful to respectable people. CC Madhya 23.74 — Krishna is very simple and liberal, He is humble and bashful, and He is the protector of the surrendered souls. He is very happy, and He is always the well-wisher of His devotees. He is all-auspicious, and He is submissive to love. CC Madhya 23.75 — Krishna is very influential and famous, and He is the object of attachment for everyone. He is the shelter of the good and the virtuous. He is attractive to the minds of women, and He is worshiped by everyone. He is very, very rich. CC Madhya 23.76 — Krishna is the Supreme, and He is always glorified as the Supreme Lord and controller. Thus all the previously mentioned transcendental qualities are in Him. The fifty qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead mentioned above are as deep as an ocean. In other words, they are difficult to fully comprehend. CC Madhya 23.77 These qualities are sometimes very minutely exhibited in living beings, but they are fully manifested in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ CC Madhya 23.78 — Apart from these fifty qualities, there are five other qualities found in the Supreme Personality of Godhead that are partially present in demigods like Śiva. CC Madhya 23.79-81 — ‘These qualities are (1) the Lord is always situated in His original position, (2) He is omniscient, (3) He is always fresh and youthful, (4) He is the concentrated form of eternity, knowledge and bliss, and (5) He is the possessor of all mystic perfection. There are another five qualities, which exist in the Vaikuṇṭha planets in Nārāyaṇa, the Lord of Lakṣmī. These qualities are also present in Krishna, but they are not present in demigods like Lord Śiva or in other living entities. These are (1) the Lord possesses inconceivable supreme power, (2) He generates innumerable universes from His body, (3) He is the original source of all incarnations, (4) He bestows salvation upon enemies He kills, and (5) He has the ability to attract exalted persons who are satisfied in themselves. Although these qualities are present in Nārāyaṇa, the dominating Deity of the Vaikuṇṭha planets, they are even more wonderfully present in Krishna. Now this would be a long list of examples of what 'it' is not, hehe. If you want to get an idea of what I am talking about do some reading on flow experience. And then take what you've learned there as a pointer. Don't take it literally. Because presence is not an experience in the usual sense of the word, even though flow mostly is (unless it isn't - there are some borderline cases). We are talking about something very simple, immediate and intimate. Something that is always there. Closer than your own breath. No one can take it from you, and no one can give it to you. You cannot earn it and you cannot lose it. So don't try to turn this into a religion. That would be objectifying it which would mean losing sight of it. So, what is It? (1) It's the key that unlocks the door to wealth, health, enlightenment, and even immortality. Yet this great treasure is “everywhere to be found.” (2) It is something that can only be discovered and understood by first going within our own “house,” which could also be our own body or mind. (3) People who blindly follow socially accepted values, beliefs, and behavior, are no longer connected to the mystery of this thing and therefore “throw it away.” It is something often rejected as irrelevant or easily taken for granted. (4) The answer is both the beginning and end of the Great Work of the alchemists. It is “the only thing from which the Philosopher’s Stone can be prepared.” |
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2019 10:53:09 GMT -5
Oneness isn't an achievement and presence isn't a mind doing. For some it's an achievement. You have another definition of presence, I guess. Presence is fundamentally an absence; a not doing. It's not advantageous for mind/ego to take credit for getting out of the way. It is, more appropriately, an act of humility. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 12, 2019 11:03:27 GMT -5
For some it's an achievement. You have another definition of presence, I guess. Presence is fundamentally an absence; a not doing. It's not advantageous for mind/ego to take credit for getting out of the way. It is, more appropriately, an act of humility. Ah the positive and negative in one. It creates an energy some kind of an electricity. The not doing and doing. The mind and brain. Both are one yet different. Muscles won't contract if there's no action potential that takes place in the nerve. At the cellular level, its the entrance of potassium into the cell membrane and exit of sodium. Something like is what presence is all about..The flow according to Reefs.. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2019 11:28:12 GMT -5
Presence is fundamentally an absence; a not doing. It's not advantageous for mind/ego to take credit for getting out of the way. It is, more appropriately, an act of humility. Ah the positive and negative in one. It creates an energy some kind of an electricity. The not doing and doing. The mind and brain. Both are one yet different. Muscles won't contract if there's no action potential that takes place in the nerve. At the cellular level, its the entrance of potassium into the cell membrane and exit of sodium. Something like is what presence is all about..The flow according to Reefs.. I would say flow is an action that takes place in the absence of conscious mental activity. That absence is what I'm calling presence. It's not about brain biology. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 12, 2019 12:13:58 GMT -5
Ah the positive and negative in one. It creates an energy some kind of an electricity. The not doing and doing. The mind and brain. Both are one yet different. Muscles won't contract if there's no action potential that takes place in the nerve. At the cellular level, its the entrance of potassium into the cell membrane and exit of sodium. Something like is what presence is all about..The flow according to Reefs.. I would say flow is an action that takes place in the absence of conscious mental activity. That absence is what I'm calling presence. It's not about brain biology. You mean PRESENCE is required for the creation and maintenance of all physical matter on all planets? If this “driver” were to disappear, the entire physical universe, including the planets and suns, would cease? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2019 19:49:19 GMT -5
I would say flow is an action that takes place in the absence of conscious mental activity. That absence is what I'm calling presence. It's not about brain biology. How certain are you that conscious mental activity is not an aspect of brain chemistry? Ultimately, the brain is not the cause of mental activity. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 12, 2019 22:05:33 GMT -5
Ultimately, the brain is not the cause of mental activity. I didn't ask how quickly can you flutter up to your broadest perspective. I asked how certain are you that conscious mental activity is not an aspect of brain chemistry. The brain is the most complex organ in the human body. It produces our every thought, action, memory, feeling and experience of the world. This jelly-like mass of tissue, weighing in at around 1.4 kilograms, contains a staggering one hundred billion nerve cells, or neurons. IOW, if there's no brain chemistry there's no thought, action, memory and feelings, right? |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 13, 2019 2:36:36 GMT -5
You mean PRESENCE is required for the creation and maintenance of all physical matter on all planets? If this “driver” were to disappear, the entire physical universe, including the planets and suns, would cease? Basically, he's saying that he doesn't think about what he does all the time. In Zendancer's language that is the same as saying there are no self-referential thoughts. Being unthoughtful lacks concern for others. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2019 10:10:10 GMT -5
Ultimately, the brain is not the cause of mental activity. I didn't ask how quickly can you flutter up to your broadest perspective. I asked how certain are you that conscious mental activity is not an aspect of brain chemistry. Absolutely certain. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2019 10:12:11 GMT -5
I didn't ask how quickly can you flutter up to your broadest perspective. I asked how certain are you that conscious mental activity is not an aspect of brain chemistry. The brain is the most complex organ in the human body. It produces our every thought, action, memory, feeling and experience of the world. This jelly-like mass of tissue, weighing in at around 1.4 kilograms, contains a staggering one hundred billion nerve cells, or neurons. IOW, if there's no brain chemistry there's no thought, action, memory and feelings, right? Right, and yet one does not cause the other. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2019 10:19:04 GMT -5
The brain is the most complex organ in the human body. It produces our every thought, action, memory, feeling and experience of the world. This jelly-like mass of tissue, weighing in at around 1.4 kilograms, contains a staggering one hundred billion nerve cells, or neurons. IOW, if there's no brain chemistry there's no thought, action, memory and feelings, right? Enigma is not a neuroscientist he's a philosopher. So all his answers will negate biology and chemistry and focus on consciousness. And yet, he eats food, hydrates and sleeps regularly. Why do the two of you want to talk about biology and chemistry? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2019 10:27:14 GMT -5
You mean PRESENCE is required for the creation and maintenance of all physical matter on all planets? If this “driver” were to disappear, the entire physical universe, including the planets and suns, would cease? Basically, he's saying that he doesn't think about what he does all the time. In Zendancer's language that is the same as saying there are no self-referential thoughts. Basically, and flow most often happens when physical activity requires faster reaction times than conscious thinking can provide. The result is an experience of effortless action. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2019 10:31:41 GMT -5
Basically, he's saying that he doesn't think about what he does all the time. In Zendancer's language that is the same as saying there are no self-referential thoughts. Being unthoughtful lacks concern for others. Seriously? When we talk about being thoughtful toward other, we don't mean thinking about them a lot. We mean being considerate and compassionate. Thinking too much might actually result in being less considerate. |
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 13, 2019 16:20:19 GMT -5
Being unthoughtful lacks concern for others. Seriously? When we talk about being thoughtful toward other, we don't mean thinking about them a lot. We mean being considerate and compassionate. Thinking too much might actually result in being less considerate. ![]() Attachments:
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