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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 6:25:45 GMT -5
The unending stillness and depth of your soul still doesn't prove that the universe is an illusion. Though that isn't to say that the experience of the daily 'universe' isn't altered when such depths offer their baptism. Those that have passed through such an incomprehensible stillness and depth as though they felt themselves passing through the Earth as a whole, are still experiencing the Universe. One of my favorite moments occurred on a long trek. It had been days since I spoke when I walked along a high mountain ridge and it suddenly occurred to me 'this is why God made the world'. It's not like a question preceded it, so there's no context, rationale etc. It's just that what we say is an illusion or what is real poses like an answer does and really these are only secondary notions assigned to 'what is'. So, when we try to make it true that this is an illusion or this is real, we become distracted from knowing it by the knowledge about it. Could this easily be perceived as a This. Is. It. moment, as well? |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 16:56:55 GMT -5
Verbal thoughts are not necessary for conversation, and only in rare cases do people purposely think about what they're going to say before they speak. People with extremely silent minds do not even do that. Tolle often sits in silence prior to public satsangs, not in order to think up what he's going to say, but simply waiting for the words to appear. This is true of many, if not most, ND teachers. I guess so, just speak as it comes out. I would have considered that verbal thoughts, though, but no need to split strawmans ay teehee. Yeah, the distinction is subtle, but in practice it's very obvious to the speaker because he's not consciously thinking about what he's going to say any more than he's consciously thinking about how to move his mouth in order to make the right sounds. It's as though there is a direct connection from 'seeing' to speaking and it 'seems' like it just happens by itself. (effortless) |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 17:02:01 GMT -5
One verbalizes, but one does not have to plan ahead of time what to say. Most of what we speak is contemporaneous, though sometimes we practice or rehearse things beforehand, for a job interview perhaps, or what we are going to say to so and so when we see them, etc. This is usually not a very efficient way to conduct ourselves though, because what is planned ahead of time is almost always out of context for how the moment actually presents, which is almost never as we imagine it to be. Yes; THIS is very intelligent! I suspect that a certain amount of internal silence is necessary to get a sense of just how intelligent THIS is. Humans are mesmerized by cultural conditioning to imagine that they are beings in control of what the body does, but this is laughable. We don't know how "we" circulate blood, grow hair or teeth, regulate blood gas concentrations, regulate hormones or body temperature, cause blood to clot, grow, age, breathe, see, think, speak, or do almost anything else. Most of us have cartoon images in the mind that "explain" all of the stuff that's happening. A biologist, for example, will say, "Well, if we cut our skin, there is a sequence of biochemical events that will occur that will "cause" the blood to clot," as if naming the individual chemical reactions explains anything. Or, a person will say, "All of that stuff is automatic," but s/he will never grasp that everything else falls into that same automatic incomprehensible category. The idea that "I am walking down the street" (as a separate entity) is hilarious if looked at from a deeper perspective.  Zackly......Now excuse me as it's time for me to regulate my blood gas concentration.... |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 17:03:39 GMT -5
One verbalizes, but one does not have to plan ahead of time what to say. Most of what we speak is contemporaneous, though sometimes we practice or rehearse things beforehand, for a job interview perhaps, or what we are going to say to so and so when we see them, etc. This is usually not a very efficient way to conduct ourselves though, because what is planned ahead of time is almost always out of context for how the moment actually presents, which is almost never as we imagine it to be. I think preparing for an interview is the most efficient approach. Yes, in that case you want to avoid spontaneous truth and honesty at all cost. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 17:08:45 GMT -5
I just browsed over a spiritual forum ( Yoganandaji ). There was in that thread members arguing. One said that the master was not an incarnation of William Penn. Because there was no evidence to prove otherwise. The other devout forum member thought otherwise and described the latter a troll. I experienced this myself being branded, " A trouble-maker, a troll, " in different spiritual forums I can remember. Even a Hare Krsna forum, the registered users there also consider me a nuisance. A liberated soul actually scoffs at these accusations. Finally, realizing that if one wants to stay put, stay in one place, one should not stir things up. Simply ride on whatever is the topic at hand. I thought I erred on this one. Latter is also a word for Church of the Latter-Day Saints. There are members or devout followers of Yoganandaji who formerly belong to the Mormons. Most of them lived in Utah, USA. What I know SR Fellowship former President was a Mormon Daya Mata ( deceased ). That`s another story. Thinking and thoughts to an Advait is mental are illusions. But that`s not a problem for those who seek self-realization. Thoughts and thinking are used to enhance not depreciate one`s well-being. It`s alright to think. It does not do any harm. Thoughts that are malicious and evil should be condemned. After all, they belong to the criminal mind. Let thought be focused on love not hate. That`s what self-realized freedom is all about. Unless, of course, they don't deserve to be loved.  |
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Post by krsnaraja on Nov 26, 2017 17:19:04 GMT -5
I thought I erred on this one. Latter is also a word for Church of the Latter-Day Saints. There are members or devout followers of Yoganandaji who formerly belong to the Mormons. Most of them lived in Utah, USA. What I know SR Fellowship former President was a Mormon Daya Mata ( deceased ). That`s another story. Thinking and thoughts to an Advait is mental are illusions. But that`s not a problem for those who seek self-realization. Thoughts and thinking are used to enhance not depreciate one`s well-being. It`s alright to think. It does not do any harm. Thoughts that are malicious and evil should be condemned. After all, they belong to the criminal mind. Let thought be focused on love not hate. That`s what self-realized freedom is all about. Unless, of course, they don't deserve to be loved. Yes, there are people who teach you how to hate. Good ones teach you how to love. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 17:54:12 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. The first group have merely found the freedom from the need for intellectual answers but not freedom from suffering, for without the benefit of SR they would still be engaged in dualistic thinking/being, which is the cause of suffering. Those who have SR and are able to consistently abide or immerse in the Absolute have found freedom from suffering. The deeper and longer their immersion, the greater their bliss and their freedom from suffering. Thinking then is no longer a hindrance but a tool to help them create their Absolute-inspired reality. The possibility of a relatively greater freedom from suffering is commonly available to most human beings, regardless of SR. What thought is nondual? What thought is absolute? |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 18:08:42 GMT -5
Unless, of course, they don't deserve to be loved. Yes, there are people who teach you how to hate. Good ones teach you how to love. I think that if we're honest with ourselves that we each might find some depth in terms of what you've written here. But the nonduality sources offer a different perspective, one that invites us to both become conscious of and look beyond our conditioned reactions. It's exactly the sort of transcendent love Christ invites you into by challenging you to pray for your enemies. For me not to pray for my enemies I have to first get honest with myself as to whether or not I create any in the course of my perception, and that particular act of creation can often be quite subtle. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 18:12:40 GMT -5
Well thanks for taking the time to write the response. Our perspectives on death are quite different. But I am curious, what culture were you exposed to, and what experiences led you to your current outlook? My pleasure  My background and interests are part-zen and part-New Age, and coupled with my personal experiences in self-healing and spiritual practice, I find this is the afterlife perspective that feels true for me. Have you ever considered the possibility that there is no reincarnation, no afterlife, no plan, and no "Home"? Yes, and that is possible, but just not a truth I resonate strongly with. Some of what Maharshi and Nisargardatta said on the topic of reincarnation is quite startling given their native cultural context. Are you familiar with Maharshi's awakening story? Have you ever noticed the Hindu influence on the New-Age culture? |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 18:15:40 GMT -5
Yes; THIS is very intelligent! I suspect that a certain amount of internal silence is necessary to get a sense of just how intelligent THIS is. Humans are mesmerized by cultural conditioning to imagine that they are beings in control of what the body does, but this is laughable. We don't know how "we" circulate blood, grow hair or teeth, regulate blood gas concentrations, regulate hormones or body temperature, cause blood to clot, grow, age, breathe, see, think, speak, or do almost anything else. Most of us have cartoon images in the mind that "explain" all of the stuff that's happening. A biologist, for example, will say, "Well, if we cut our skin, there is a sequence of biochemical events that will occur that will "cause" the blood to clot," as if naming the individual chemical reactions explains anything. Or, a person will say, "All of that stuff is automatic," but s/he will never grasp that everything else falls into that same automatic incomprehensible category. The idea that "I am walking down the street" (as a separate entity) is hilarious if looked at from a deeper perspective. Zackly......Now excuse me as it's time for me to regulate my blood gas concentration.... Yeah, you mind doin' that in the next room?  |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 18:17:35 GMT -5
I guess so, just speak as it comes out. I would have considered that verbal thoughts, though, but no need to split strawmans ay teehee. Yeah, the distinction is subtle, but in practice it's very obvious to the speaker because he's not consciously thinking about what he's going to say any more than he's consciously thinking about how to move his mouth in order to make the right sounds. It's as though there is a direct connection from 'seeing' to speaking and it 'seems' like it just happens by itself. (effortless) Always shirking the hard work. (** shakes head sadly **) |
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Post by krsnaraja on Nov 26, 2017 18:22:21 GMT -5
Yes, there are people who teach you how to hate. Good ones teach you how to love. I think that if we're honest with ourselves that we each might find some depth in terms of what you've written here. But the nonduality sources offer a different perspective, one that invites us to both become conscious of and look beyond our conditioned reactions. It's exactly the sort of transcendent love Christ invites you into by challenging you to pray for your enemies. For me not to pray for my enemies I have to first get honest with myself as to whether or not I create any in the course of my perception, and that particular act of creation can often be quite subtle. Non-quality is a hesitant religion. Thinking twice before taking the plunge. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 18:31:50 GMT -5
What`s pure love? You mean "I am That" is a voidal outpouring of pure love? That I called 'outpouring' is the nature of ourselves, but it isn't before us where we can find it. It comes from 'behind'. I sound quite silly teehee. ****Turns around very quickly several times, then gives up and sits back down*** |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2017 18:31:53 GMT -5
I think that if we're honest with ourselves that we each might find some depth in terms of what you've written here. But the nonduality sources offer a different perspective, one that invites us to both become conscious of and look beyond our conditioned reactions. It's exactly the sort of transcendent love Christ invites you into by challenging you to pray for your enemies. For me not to pray for my enemies I have to first get honest with myself as to whether or not I create any in the course of my perception, and that particular act of creation can often be quite subtle. Non-quality is a hesitant religion. Thinking twice before taking the plunge. Qualities come and go, and they'll keep coming and going to every peep for as long as their drawing breath. Nonduality, as I understand it, isn't the negation of quality, but rather, is about arriving at clarity as regard to the nature of quality. I think you might have irritated a few peeps here on the forum, and this can end up in a self-reinforcing downward spiral. I think I can understand the objection you're raising in this instance, and I don't expect you to accept my challenge/counter-point, but I did want to offer it. I also think that this objection and that irritation are very much related. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2017 18:40:47 GMT -5
Agreed, except for the last 11 words. I doubt that any of them see thinking as a tool for creating anything; they see thinking more as a functional aspect of "what is." Of course, that may be what you mean by those words. Yes, we could be talking about the same thing and "functional aspect" is a wonderful way to describe it Everyone's expression of the Absolute is different with some being more passive and others more proactive, and I feel that depends significantly on what is our soul purpose or spiritual contract. On one end of the spectrum, we have someone like Ramana Maharshi who was almost always in a passive mode perhaps because that was his life mission. But if one is nearer the other end of the spectrum with a laundry list of worldly things to accomplish and constantly receiving inspirations and visions to build something, perhaps because such a person wishes to experience what it's like to be "deep in the world but not of the world", then the creative process will be more proactive. Or in the case where one may feel plenty of love and compassion and wishes to reach out and enlighten as many people as possible, the creative process will also be more proactive. Granted that RM's total surrender mode may be the most enlightened way of being, it is not necessarily the right one for any given individual as our soul agenda for any particular lifetime supersedes everything else. But whether it's more passive or proactive, yup, they are all functional aspects of the Absolute How does this "soul purpose/spiritual contract" thingy work? |
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