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Post by zendancer on Nov 7, 2017 9:03:28 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas."
The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok.
If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story.
What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events.
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Post by maxdprophet on Nov 7, 2017 9:48:23 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. On the first category, whuddabout just SR "doesn't seem to be in the cards"? Come what may. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 10:42:26 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. Dual nonduality or non-dual duality. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Nov 7, 2017 11:09:48 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. Plenty of simple atheists who have never heard of SR feel free like the people in the first group, though. They dismiss all existential questions as bosh and claim to feel just dandy. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 7, 2017 13:19:15 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. On the first category, whuddabout just SR "doesn't seem to be in the cards"? Come what may. Max: None of these people fell into the category you describe. Many people obviously have no interest in anything other than a particular belief system to which they adhere. Some of those people are atheists, some of those people are agnostics, and some of those people are devoutly religious. Other people search for a while and then simply lose interest in the search. They're not consumed by it, and from their POV it's not a matter of life and death. I've also met other people whose attitude is, "Even if awakening is possible, I don't think I'll wake up in this lifetime, and that's okay with me." I remember a lady in a Methodist Sunday School class many years ago who, during a discussion of this topic, said, "I believe in the early Methodist idea of "the elect"--that a few people are fated to find God in some visceral sense in this lifetime--and I'm not one of them." I remember that the whole class was rather shocked by her statement. FWIW, some of the old Methodist hymns used to refer to "the elect" and that phrase was eventually removed because it smacked too much of predestination for peoples' tastes. The people I contacted and wrote about were all people who were what we would call "very serious seekers" who only ceased seeking after some sort of significant realization. One fellow I know who falls into the first category, feels as though he found what he was looking for--the fact that the search, itself, is a purely intellectual endeavor. Once he saw that, he no longer saw any point in searching any further. He is considered enlightened by many people I know, but I don't see how he fits the definition of Self-realized since he never discovered The Self that Ramana, Niz, and other non-dual sages point to. The reason that I said that it might be interesting to follow people in both categories is that SR (to my mind) involves a significant level of detachment and acceptance of "what is." If a sage can't "roll with the punches" and remain relatively equanimitous, then it would make me wonder what had been realized. A sage makes plans like anyone else, but is there attachment to plans unfolding as imagined? If there is, then whatever freedom has been attained would seem rather shallow and shakeable. Does that make sense? I heard a dharma talk one time many years ago during which a Zen Master said that following the path to truth is like gradually adding ballast to a schmoo. I'm not sure about the spelling, but there are bowling ball shaped dolls (and cartoon characters--schmoos) that are weighted on the bottom. If you knock them over, they'll rise back up. The ZM's idea was that as one shakes off one's cultural conditioning and penetrates various cognitive illusions, its like adding sand ballast to the dolls. Eventually, it doesn't matter what happens; the sage no longer is attached to ideas that can knock her down or keep her down. She becomes so unified with "what is" that she rolls with whatever comes her way. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 7, 2017 14:25:54 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. Plenty of simple atheists who have never heard of SR feel free like the people in the first group, though. They dismiss all existential questions as bosh and claim to feel just dandy. You're right, and I addressed that issue in my reply to Max. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Nov 7, 2017 18:38:28 GMT -5
The reason that I said that it might be interesting to follow people in both categories is that SR (to my mind) involves a significant level of detachment and acceptance of "what is." If a sage can't "roll with the punches" and remain relatively equanimitous, then it would make me wonder what had been realized. A sage makes plans like anyone else, but is there attachment to plans unfolding as imagined? If there is, then whatever freedom has been attained would seem rather shallow and shakeable. Does that make sense? Interesting. But what were you hoping to clarify through this investigation? Whether the underlying SR could be experienced/expressed as something seemingly completely different (i.e. a realization that further inquiry is useless) but actually be internally the same (i.e. that a real freedom from life's contingencies is reached)? On a separate but intertwined point, I might play devil's advocate for a moment, and suggest that ultimate freedom is related to but still detachable from the kind of freedom from contingency you mention here. Isn't it possible to imagine that someone with a very unstable mind nevertheless is aware of the Self? I think it is. Their mind may roll and roil; they may experience various intense states of despair... but if within and behind that despair there is Knowledge, then there is freedom. To the external observer the person may seem positively unbalanced, but isn't the inner experience what counts? Usually we may say a balanced mind is correlated with realization, but not always. I think here of someone like Osho, who to me spoke like one who had realized, but perhaps was mentally unbalanced in many ways. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 7, 2017 20:40:39 GMT -5
The reason that I said that it might be interesting to follow people in both categories is that SR (to my mind) involves a significant level of detachment and acceptance of "what is." If a sage can't "roll with the punches" and remain relatively equanimitous, then it would make me wonder what had been realized. A sage makes plans like anyone else, but is there attachment to plans unfolding as imagined? If there is, then whatever freedom has been attained would seem rather shallow and shakeable. Does that make sense? Interesting. But what were you hoping to clarify through this investigation? Whether the underlying SR could be experienced/expressed as something seemingly completely different (i.e. a realization that further inquiry is useless) but actually be internally the same (i.e. that a real freedom from life's contingencies is reached)? On a separate but intertwined point, I might play devil's advocate for a moment, and suggest that ultimate freedom is related to but still detachable from the kind of freedom from contingency you mention here. Isn't it possible to imagine that someone with a very unstable mind nevertheless is aware of the Self? I think it is. Their mind may roll and roil; they may experience various intense states of despair... but if within and behind that despair there is Knowledge, then there is freedom. To the external observer the person may seem positively unbalanced, but isn't the inner experience what counts? Usually we may say a balanced mind is correlated with realization, but not always. I think here of someone like Osho, who to me spoke like one who had realized, but perhaps was mentally unbalanced in many ways. Good point and entirely possible. As for my interest in people who are reportedly SR, I'm curious about how different people get free--what sort of realizations or experiences that they think led to their sense of freedom. Some people seem to have a "hard core" sense of selfhood, perhaps generated by a strong sense of identifying with various activities,interests, etc. Other people seem to have a very diffuse, or in some cases, a totally undefined sense of identity. People in the hard-core identity group think that they know exactly who they are. People in the other group often have no concrete sense of who they are. I understand how SR occurs in the first group, but I'm less certain how it occurs in the second group, so it's a bit of an exploration pursued to satisfy my own curiosity. |
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Post by xander17 on Nov 8, 2017 0:22:09 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. For Freedom...freedom from what? For SR Freedom...freedom from what? |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 8, 2017 5:06:28 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. For Freedom...freedom from what? For SR Freedom...freedom from what? Belief systems, beliefs, ideas, expectations, opinions, fear, judgmentalness, feelings of lack, sense of separation, second guessing, angst, alienation, mistaken identity-- anything that prevents or obscures realization of the Infinite. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 8, 2017 11:19:32 GMT -5
Maybe we can all agree that freedom is really freedom from the separate identity, and so the question is really how that comes about. Certainly, the realization of what one is, is one way, but the realization of what one is not is another.
IOW, along with the realization that seeking one's true identity is merely an intellectual exercise comes the clarity that the original identity was also such an exercise. This is simply seeing through the illusion and not finding anything true on the other side of it. It's anti-climactic, but nothing else is needed.
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Post by maxdprophet on Nov 8, 2017 11:31:41 GMT -5
Out of curiosity I sent some emails to various people who have reportedly awakened, and asked them about their search for truth. I asked them to describe the various events that they think led to freedom. What I discovered is that some people find freedom as a result of giving up the search; some people find freedom as a result of SR; and some people find freedom as a result of both SR and CC experiences. One person claimed that freedom did not occur until after SR, after a CC experience, and after several years of burning off what he termed "residual egoic vasanas." The first category of people (those who lose interest in the search for truth or have some sort of insight that ends their search) do not seem to be what most of us would term SR. They seem to have concluded that the search, itself, is an intellectual phenomena that at some point does not deserve any further interest. When asked, "Who are you, really?" they will shrug their shoulders and say that the question is meaningless or holds no interest for them. They are no longer troubled by existential questions because they see all such questioning as pointless mental phenomena--thinking run amok. If people in the other categories are asked, "Who are you, really?", they will give definitive answers, such as "I am THAT," or "I am the cosmos." Or, they will say something like, "What I am cannot be imagined or spoken." Or, they will say, "There is only the Self, the Absolute, the Infinite. They seem to have a clear understanding that reality is a unified whole and that personal selfhood is a fiction--a set of ideas constituting a cartoon-like story. What's interesting is that all of the people I contacted felt free, and they were no longer searching for anything, but one group of people who wrote to me claimed to have found what they were looking for whereas the other group wrote that the search, itself, was pointless or useless--essentially a waste of time. Both groups seem content with everyday life just as it is, and I suspect that one would have to spend a fair amount of time with people in each group to see if there is any significant difference in the way they react to various life events. For Freedom...freedom from what? For SR Freedom...freedom from what? There's positive freedom too -- free to knowingly groove and grok... |
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Post by maxdprophet on Nov 8, 2017 11:40:09 GMT -5
On the first category, whuddabout just SR "doesn't seem to be in the cards"? Come what may. Max: None of these people fell into the category you describe. Many people obviously have no interest in anything other than a particular belief system to which they adhere. Some of those people are atheists, some of those people are agnostics, and some of those people are devoutly religious. Other people search for a while and then simply lose interest in the search. They're not consumed by it, and from their POV it's not a matter of life and death. I've also met other people whose attitude is, "Even if awakening is possible, I don't think I'll wake up in this lifetime, and that's okay with me." I remember a lady in a Methodist Sunday School class many years ago who, during a discussion of this topic, said, "I believe in the early Methodist idea of "the elect"--that a few people are fated to find God in some visceral sense in this lifetime--and I'm not one of them." I remember that the whole class was rather shocked by her statement. FWIW, some of the old Methodist hymns used to refer to "the elect" and that phrase was eventually removed because it smacked too much of predestination for peoples' tastes. The people I contacted and wrote about were all people who were what we would call "very serious seekers" who only ceased seeking after some sort of significant realization. One fellow I know who falls into the first category, feels as though he found what he was looking for--the fact that the search, itself, is a purely intellectual endeavor. Once he saw that, he no longer saw any point in searching any further. He is considered enlightened by many people I know, but I don't see how he fits the definition of Self-realized since he never discovered The Self that Ramana, Niz, and other non-dual sages point to. The reason that I said that it might be interesting to follow people in both categories is that SR (to my mind) involves a significant level of detachment and acceptance of "what is." If a sage can't "roll with the punches" and remain relatively equanimitous, then it would make me wonder what had been realized. A sage makes plans like anyone else, but is there attachment to plans unfolding as imagined? If there is, then whatever freedom has been attained would seem rather shallow and shakeable. Does that make sense? I heard a dharma talk one time many years ago during which a Zen Master said that following the path to truth is like gradually adding ballast to a schmoo. I'm not sure about the spelling, but there are bowling ball shaped dolls (and cartoon characters--schmoos) that are weighted on the bottom. If you knock them over, they'll rise back up. The ZM's idea was that as one shakes off one's cultural conditioning and penetrates various cognitive illusions, its like adding sand ballast to the dolls. Eventually, it doesn't matter what happens; the sage no longer is attached to ideas that can knock her down or keep her down. She becomes so unified with "what is" that she rolls with whatever comes her way. I like the concept of "the elect." It could also just be a statistical anomaly. Fact is, billions and billions don't SR. You're wondering about particular details in the story of the teeny fraction that do. Maybe it's just not meant to be, as evidenced by the vast majority of data. The anomalous few have individual narratives. |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 8, 2017 13:04:24 GMT -5
Max: None of these people fell into the category you describe. Many people obviously have no interest in anything other than a particular belief system to which they adhere. Some of those people are atheists, some of those people are agnostics, and some of those people are devoutly religious. Other people search for a while and then simply lose interest in the search. They're not consumed by it, and from their POV it's not a matter of life and death. I've also met other people whose attitude is, "Even if awakening is possible, I don't think I'll wake up in this lifetime, and that's okay with me." I remember a lady in a Methodist Sunday School class many years ago who, during a discussion of this topic, said, "I believe in the early Methodist idea of "the elect"--that a few people are fated to find God in some visceral sense in this lifetime--and I'm not one of them." I remember that the whole class was rather shocked by her statement. FWIW, some of the old Methodist hymns used to refer to "the elect" and that phrase was eventually removed because it smacked too much of predestination for peoples' tastes. The people I contacted and wrote about were all people who were what we would call "very serious seekers" who only ceased seeking after some sort of significant realization. One fellow I know who falls into the first category, feels as though he found what he was looking for--the fact that the search, itself, is a purely intellectual endeavor. Once he saw that, he no longer saw any point in searching any further. He is considered enlightened by many people I know, but I don't see how he fits the definition of Self-realized since he never discovered The Self that Ramana, Niz, and other non-dual sages point to. The reason that I said that it might be interesting to follow people in both categories is that SR (to my mind) involves a significant level of detachment and acceptance of "what is." If a sage can't "roll with the punches" and remain relatively equanimitous, then it would make me wonder what had been realized. A sage makes plans like anyone else, but is there attachment to plans unfolding as imagined? If there is, then whatever freedom has been attained would seem rather shallow and shakeable. Does that make sense? I heard a dharma talk one time many years ago during which a Zen Master said that following the path to truth is like gradually adding ballast to a schmoo. I'm not sure about the spelling, but there are bowling ball shaped dolls (and cartoon characters--schmoos) that are weighted on the bottom. If you knock them over, they'll rise back up. The ZM's idea was that as one shakes off one's cultural conditioning and penetrates various cognitive illusions, its like adding sand ballast to the dolls. Eventually, it doesn't matter what happens; the sage no longer is attached to ideas that can knock her down or keep her down. She becomes so unified with "what is" that she rolls with whatever comes her way. I like the concept of "the elect." It could also just be a statistical anomaly. Fact is, billions and billions don't SR. You're wondering about particular details in the story of the teeny fraction that do. Maybe it's just not meant to be, as evidenced by the vast majority of data. The anomalous few have individual narratives. True. I understand what happens when "the little guy/gal in one's head" disappears, but I remain curious about the kind of realization that occurs to people who never had the sense of being an entity animating the body. For people in the former category, the realization that frees them from the illusion of separateness is the discovery that there never was a person inside the body doing anything. The familiar "little guy/gal" literally disappears. One looks inside, and there's no longer anyone there. The "inside" is empty. In fact, inside and outside are then seen as fictional distinctions. For people who never identified themselves as a person in that way, however, I have no idea what kind of realization leads to unity. When I talk to people about this issue, some people know exactly what I'm describing when I say "little guy/gal in the head," but many people have no idea what those words refer to. They say that they have no such highly-defined or locational sense of self. Those are the people I'm particularly interested in if SR has been attained. |
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Post by xander17 on Nov 8, 2017 18:55:48 GMT -5
For Freedom...freedom from what? For SR Freedom...freedom from what? Belief systems, beliefs, ideas, expectations, opinions, fear, judgmentalness, feelings of lack, sense of separation, second guessing, angst, alienation, mistaken identity-- anything that prevents or obscures realization of the Infinite. And how can a person determine with 100% accuracy if SR, it's precepts, it's descriptions of reality, are 100% accurate accounts of the experienced phenomena of reality, or it's the same as any other religious or spiritual belief system, where they're only perceived as absolute truth because a person chooses to believe it is? EDIT: Also, some clarification, if you please. The list you provided, these "Belief systems, beliefs, ideas, expectations, opinions, fear", are these any type or specific ones, that is, any type of belief or just ones that state that separateness is real? I ask because it seems SR is designed to help a person detach from the mental delusion of a separate self. But usually when a person activates denial, avoidance or disassociation actions, it's due to experiencing negative sensations from those associations. Therefore my follow-up question is, based on these specualtions, What are the harmful aspects of perceiving self as a separate entity but is also anintrinsic part of the whole single reality? |
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