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Post by quinn on Apr 9, 2016 14:48:09 GMT -5
SDP: There is thinking, and there is too much thinking. Some people enter the spiritual path to escape suffering, some out of curiosity, some because they intuit that the conventional view of reality is somehow flawed, some because the conventional view doesn't make logical sense, and some because of an unusual experience or insight that transcended the intellect. After entering the path, there is usually a lot of thinking ABOUT the path. Quite often there is even MORE thinking than in the past. Because people are addicted to thinking rather than being (directly interacting with the world like little children), they get attached to all kinds of ideas related to spirituality and existential issues. For some people, the more they learn the further they travel AWAY from the truth because their ideas become a spiritual stumbling block. Most people on this forum are already consciously seeking transcendence, SR/TR, freedom, enlightenment, and/or peace of mind. The best thing that I can say to such people is, "You already know what you desire, so now it's time to relax, stay focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment, and perform whatever is the present task at hand. There's no need to spend any more time reflecting, comparing, judging, etc. What you're searching for is already here, and if you become sufficiently silent, you will discover it. It's time to leave all teachers and teachings behind, and trust yourself 100%. Look within; look without; and stay alert to 'what is'." I'm not telling the average person on the street to "just pump the gas!" I'm telling people who have been seeking freedom and trying to understand what's going on to "just pump the gas." I trust that sincere seekers who leave all ideas behind and put sustained attention upon what's happening here and now will discover what they're searching for. There is a time and a place for Tolle or Gurdjieff, but now is not the time. This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2016 16:40:42 GMT -5
SDP: There is thinking, and there is too much thinking. Some people enter the spiritual path to escape suffering, some out of curiosity, some because they intuit that the conventional view of reality is somehow flawed, some because the conventional view doesn't make logical sense, and some because of an unusual experience or insight that transcended the intellect. After entering the path, there is usually a lot of thinking ABOUT the path. Quite often there is even MORE thinking than in the past. Because people are addicted to thinking rather than being (directly interacting with the world like little children), they get attached to all kinds of ideas related to spirituality and existential issues. For some people, the more they learn the further they travel AWAY from the truth because their ideas become a spiritual stumbling block. Most people on this forum are already consciously seeking transcendence, SR/TR, freedom, enlightenment, and/or peace of mind. The best thing that I can say to such people is, "You already know what you desire, so now it's time to relax, stay focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment, and perform whatever is the present task at hand. There's no need to spend any more time reflecting, comparing, judging, etc. What you're searching for is already here, and if you become sufficiently silent, you will discover it. It's time to leave all teachers and teachings behind, and trust yourself 100%. Look within; look without; and stay alert to 'what is'." I'm not telling the average person on the street to "just pump the gas!" I'm telling people who have been seeking freedom and trying to understand what's going on to "just pump the gas." I trust that sincere seekers who leave all ideas behind and put sustained attention upon what's happening here and now will discover what they're searching for. There is a time and a place for Tolle or Gurdjieff, but now is not the time. This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. Quinn: Good point, but this particular advice was directed toward people who have already spent a fair amount of time reflecting about the issues discussed here. They need to be encouraged to drop all of their ideas for a while, stay in a not-knowing state of mind, and "just do it" (a la the Nike commercial). When people think too much and stay strongly attached to various ideas--even spiritual ideas--, those ideas often become a kind of barrier to realization. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 9, 2016 17:11:47 GMT -5
SDP: You wrote, "But the underlined is not the same as the bold [If you fill the "mind" with the bold, there is not "room" for thought]." The underlined IS THE SAME as the bold. What I'm pointing to is NOT filling the mind with the bold or anything else; it is just pumping gas. There's no trying to do anything; all actions remain simple and empty. By relaxing into being what you already are, without trying to get something, realizations will occur that will inform mind. Everything has already been set in motion by the search, so, in a sense, you are surrendering to reality in whatever way it presents itself. Gurdjieff, Rose, and many other teachers have developed complex cosmologies and explanations, but I'm suggesting letting go of all that in favor of something simpler and more obvious. No levels, no evolution, no development, no movement at all. As Silence once said, "This. Is. It." As someone else once said, "What you already are is what you're looking for." As Seng Sten said, "Make one distinction, and heaven and earth are set infinitely far apart." So you are saying not to ATA(-T) while pumping gas? (IOW, ATA(-T) or no ATA(-T), it doesn't matter)? (Because it's exceptionally very easy not to ATA-T while pumping gas). |
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2016 19:13:19 GMT -5
Oh, they have cheerleaders to do that.  Whoa now, wait a minute.  I was envisioning someones like Barbara Eden .. seems like standards for the squads have slipped in recent years given the equal opportunity rules and all .. you didn't mean .. I mean, did you??  I absolutely did. This year's squad leader:  |
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2016 19:30:23 GMT -5
Well said. I'm thinking this is the difficulty that many have with the idea of 'practical application of nondual ideas'. Aside from the fact that it's not applied ideas, the effect of realization is essentially the absence of applied ideas. Hehe
Trying to understand how an absence influences one's 'day to day living'is not only counter-intuitive to mind, but also requires the recognition of the impact of illusion/self delusion on our lives. (which is what I keep trying to point out in some very 'practical' ways) There, that's better than you trying to 'personalize' ZD's well said message.. Right, here's your "clarity expressed well": "no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity" We can just ignore the fact that it contradicts virtually everything you say here. How bout you leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness? |
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2016 19:33:43 GMT -5
If I remember right, 600 is enlightenment, so 588 is cookin!  For the fellow to whom I referred, enlightenment was considered to be 1000, and it's no surprise that he considered himself, Jesus, and the Buddha to be at that level. LOL He also believed that he could determine the attainment level of people he had never met, whether living or dead. Even funnier, he often forgot what he had previously said, so the levels regularly changed from conversation to conversation. When numbers and thoughts about quantification regularly appear in thoughts about existence, it's usually a sign that the intellect is still dominant. The path to freedom lies in a different direction. Yeah, that was a major issue I had with Hawkins. |
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Post by figgles on Apr 9, 2016 21:24:38 GMT -5
Some pretty "woo-woo" stuff too.  Seth- “(After death) you will find yourself in another form, an image that will appear physical to you to a large degree, as long as you do not try to manipulate within the physical system with it.” “For those of you who are lazy I can offer no hope: Death will not bring you an eternal resting place. You may rest, if this is your wish, for a while. Not only must you use your abilities after death, however; but you must face up to yourself for those that you did not use during your previous existence.” (From the book: SETH SPEAKS) “As I have told you before, in a manner of speaking you are given the gifts of the gods. Your beliefs become reality. What you believe is, and becomes real in your experience. There is no area in your life to which this does not apply.” " The life of any given individual could be legitimately compared to the dream of an entity. While the individual suffers and enjoys his given number of years, these years are but a flash to the entity. The entity is concerned with them in the same way that you are concerned with your dreams, and as you obtain insight and satisfaction from them, though they involve only a portion of your life, so the entity to some extent directs and gives purpose and organization to his personalities. So does the entity obtain insights and satisfactions from its existing personalities, although no one of them takes up all of its attention. Yet none of this is meant to deny the individual, for it is the individual upon whom all else rests, and it is from the basis of the individual that all entities have their existence. Nor are the memories or emotions of an individual ever taken from him. They are always at his disposal." The thread title is subconscious hook for the interest in afterlives. My point was that although you might think of some of the Seth material as 'cool', He said alot of stuff that I'm pretty sure you would think was anything but. (You've made it pretty clear what you make of talk of an afterlife, reincarnation, a self created reality and such...) "Now there are classes indeed where the newly dead are instructed. I used to teach some of these." Seth  |
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 9, 2016 21:26:05 GMT -5
There, that's better than you trying to 'personalize' ZD's well said message.. Right, here's your "clarity expressed well": "no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity" We can just ignore the fact that it contradicts virtually everything you say here. How bout you leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness? In those rare instances when you finally do see past your own illusions/beliefs/theories, you just get angry because others don't agree with your beliefs.. are you annoyed because ZD's messages resonate more clearly than yours, hoping that co-opting his posts adds the illusion of validity to yours.. You have no understanding of my message or anyone's message that doesn't agree with your beliefs, they just become targets, nails for you to hammer.. Are you willing to do the same, " leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness"?.. another attempt at a Gentleman's Agreement? No direct references, no indirect references, but ideas/beliefs are fair game?.. and, it is understood that calling something 'truth' doesn't exempt it from scrutiny, scrutiny that will remain impersonal.. asserting that reference to an idea/belief/theory that either party has posted is an indirect reference to that party is not valid, it's just that party identifying with the idea/belief/theory they've posted, making it personal themselves.. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2016 22:15:58 GMT -5
SDP: There is thinking, and there is too much thinking. Some people enter the spiritual path to escape suffering, some out of curiosity, some because they intuit that the conventional view of reality is somehow flawed, some because the conventional view doesn't make logical sense, and some because of an unusual experience or insight that transcended the intellect. After entering the path, there is usually a lot of thinking ABOUT the path. Quite often there is even MORE thinking than in the past. Because people are addicted to thinking rather than being (directly interacting with the world like little children), they get attached to all kinds of ideas related to spirituality and existential issues. For some people, the more they learn the further they travel AWAY from the truth because their ideas become a spiritual stumbling block. Most people on this forum are already consciously seeking transcendence, SR/TR, freedom, enlightenment, and/or peace of mind. The best thing that I can say to such people is, "You already know what you desire, so now it's time to relax, stay focused upon whatever is happening in the present moment, and perform whatever is the present task at hand. There's no need to spend any more time reflecting, comparing, judging, etc. What you're searching for is already here, and if you become sufficiently silent, you will discover it. It's time to leave all teachers and teachings behind, and trust yourself 100%. Look within; look without; and stay alert to 'what is'." I'm not telling the average person on the street to "just pump the gas!" I'm telling people who have been seeking freedom and trying to understand what's going on to "just pump the gas." I trust that sincere seekers who leave all ideas behind and put sustained attention upon what's happening here and now will discover what they're searching for. There is a time and a place for Tolle or Gurdjieff, but now is not the time. This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. I don't talk about it quite the way ZD does, but I understand why he does. He's saying be quiet, look within, look without, pay attention and the truth will come to you because all this spinning is what hides it. I concede that folks are going to explore until they're done exploring, so I join in and try to point out where it goes off the tracks, but I never forget that it's all part of the spiritual circus as a momentum trying to exhaust itself. We can't really say it's necessary. Surely 1000 pages of discussion about whether the perceiver is the perceiving itself, or if we can know if others are appearances or experiencers, is just the circus side show in full swing. It doesn't mean a thing beyond building up one's personal ontology. It doesn't lead to something else. Being quiet and looking leads to something else. Maybe the best we can do here is provide a focus of attention for that looking. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2016 22:27:56 GMT -5
Right, here's your "clarity expressed well": "no person doing anything, no attainment, no separation, no unity" We can just ignore the fact that it contradicts virtually everything you say here. How bout you leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness? In those rare instances when you finally do see past your own illusions/beliefs/theories, you just get angry because others don't agree with your beliefs.. are you annoyed because ZD's messages resonate more clearly than yours, hoping that co-opting his posts adds the illusion of validity to yours.. You have no understanding of my message or anyone's message that doesn't agree with your beliefs, they just become targets, nails for you to hammer.. Are you willing to do the same, " leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness"?.. another attempt at a Gentleman's Agreement? No direct references, no indirect references, but ideas/beliefs are fair game?.. and, it is understood that calling something 'truth' doesn't exempt it from scrutiny, scrutiny that will remain impersonal.. asserting that reference to an idea/belief/theory that either party has posted is an indirect reference to that party is not valid, it's just that party identifying with the idea/belief/theory they've posted, making it personal themselves.. You look through hateful eyes. It would be best if you just stopped talking about what you see with them. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 9, 2016 23:42:19 GMT -5
Whoa now, wait a minute. I was envisioning someones like Barbara Eden .. seems like standards for the squads have slipped in recent years given the equal opportunity rules and all .. you didn't mean .. I mean, did you?? I absolutely did. This year's squad leader: If that dude comes within 4 feet of me with a grape he'll lose a tooth, ok?  What level do I gotta' be to get Barbara? |
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Post by quinn on Apr 9, 2016 23:53:27 GMT -5
This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. Quinn: Good point, but this particular advice was directed toward people who have already spent a fair amount of time reflecting about the issues discussed here. They need to be encouraged to drop all of their ideas for a while, stay in a not-knowing state of mind, and "just do it" (a la the Nike commercial). When people think too much and stay strongly attached to various ideas--even spiritual ideas--, those ideas often become a kind of barrier to realization. I understand. Yes, especially spiritual ideas - they're so damn appealing! |
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 10, 2016 0:01:00 GMT -5
In those rare instances when you finally do see past your own illusions/beliefs/theories, you just get angry because others don't agree with your beliefs.. are you annoyed because ZD's messages resonate more clearly than yours, hoping that co-opting his posts adds the illusion of validity to yours.. You have no understanding of my message or anyone's message that doesn't agree with your beliefs, they just become targets, nails for you to hammer.. Are you willing to do the same, " leave my posts alone and mind your own bizness"?.. another attempt at a Gentleman's Agreement? No direct references, no indirect references, but ideas/beliefs are fair game?.. and, it is understood that calling something 'truth' doesn't exempt it from scrutiny, scrutiny that will remain impersonal.. asserting that reference to an idea/belief/theory that either party has posted is an indirect reference to that party is not valid, it's just that party identifying with the idea/belief/theory they've posted, making it personal themselves.. You look through hateful eyes. It would be best if you just stopped talking about what you see with them. I look through clear eyes, what you read when i post seems hateful because that's the emotion you identify with when you don't like something.. then, you try to make it look like others are hateful.. It would be best if you stopped trying to create illusions about others, if you would let go of the beliefs and attachments that cause you to to try to make others appear 'hateful'.. Not interested in a GA?.. you want 'me' to stop talking, so you can escape the scrutiny?.. the easiest way to silence scrutiny is with valid discussion that supports your claims, but without that option, you just want scrutiny to stop.. |
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Post by quinn on Apr 10, 2016 0:14:40 GMT -5
This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. I don't talk about it quite the way ZD does, but I understand why he does. He's saying be quiet, look within, look without, pay attention and the truth will come to you because all this spinning is what hides it. I concede that folks are going to explore until they're done exploring, so I join in and try to point out where it goes off the tracks, but I never forget that it's all part of the spiritual circus as a momentum trying to exhaust itself. We can't really say it's necessary. Surely 1000 pages of discussion about whether the perceiver is the perceiving itself, or if we can know if others are appearances or experiencers, is just the circus side show in full swing. It doesn't mean a thing beyond building up one's personal ontology. It doesn't lead to something else. Being quiet and looking leads to something else. Maybe the best we can do here is provide a focus of attention for that looking. Yes, we can't really say it's necessary but I can't say it's unnecessary either. Just like there are thoughts that are unnecessary (ruminating about the past, worrying, etc. etc.) and there are thoughts that are useful. In the same way, there are things that can be done that are useful, depending on the individual's personality, inclinations, mind-set and so on. And things that are not and keep us in a spin or, as you say, solidify the personal ontology. I can't say unequivocally that it's all part of the spiritual circus as momentum trying to exhaust itself. Sometimes the spiritual 'activity' is true exploration and discovery that sends the looking to a deeper level. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 10, 2016 0:32:11 GMT -5
I absolutely did. This year's squad leader: If that dude comes within 4 feet of me with a grape he'll lose a tooth, ok? What level do I gotta' be to get Barbara? Hey, ya gotta start at the bottom and work your way to the top! A 600 calibration and version 2.0 enlightenment gets you grape dude. Barbara services clientele of 800 and above, and giggles at anything smaller than 2.8. Sorry, it's a competitive field.  |
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