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Post by laughter on Apr 10, 2016 0:35:58 GMT -5
If that dude comes within 4 feet of me with a grape he'll lose a tooth, ok?  What level do I gotta' be to get Barbara?  Hey, ya gotta start at the bottom and work your way to the top! A 600 calibration and version 2.0 enlightenment gets you grape dude. Barbara services clientele of 800 and above, and giggles at anything smaller than 2.8. Sorry, it's a competitive field.  Well, Barby's cute when she giggles so I guess it's alright then. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 10, 2016 0:41:41 GMT -5
I don't talk about it quite the way ZD does, but I understand why he does. He's saying be quiet, look within, look without, pay attention and the truth will come to you because all this spinning is what hides it. I concede that folks are going to explore until they're done exploring, so I join in and try to point out where it goes off the tracks, but I never forget that it's all part of the spiritual circus as a momentum trying to exhaust itself. We can't really say it's necessary. Surely 1000 pages of discussion about whether the perceiver is the perceiving itself, or if we can know if others are appearances or experiencers, is just the circus side show in full swing. It doesn't mean a thing beyond building up one's personal ontology. It doesn't lead to something else. Being quiet and looking leads to something else. Maybe the best we can do here is provide a focus of attention for that looking. Yes, we can't really say it's necessary but I can't say it's unnecessary either. Just like there are thoughts that are unnecessary (ruminating about the past, worrying, etc. etc.) and there are thoughts that are useful. In the same way, there are things that can be done that are useful, depending on the individual's personality, inclinations, mind-set and so on. And things that are not and keep us in a spin or, as you say, solidify the personal ontology. I can't say unequivocally that it's all part of the spiritual circus as momentum trying to exhaust itself. Sometimes the spiritual 'activity' is true exploration and discovery that sends the looking to a deeper level. I say all true discovery results from the 'looking' to which ZD and I have both referred. I'm saying, and maybe he is too, that nothing else is of value once you've got yourself oriented as a seeker and have a direction. You know how some students tend to become 'career students'? We have lots of career seekers. |
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Post by enigma on Apr 10, 2016 0:42:49 GMT -5
Hey, ya gotta start at the bottom and work your way to the top! A 600 calibration and version 2.0 enlightenment gets you grape dude. Barbara services clientele of 800 and above, and giggles at anything smaller than 2.8. Sorry, it's a competitive field. Well, Barby's cute when she giggles so I guess it's alright then. True dat!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 2:41:19 GMT -5
You look through hateful eyes. It would be best if you just stopped talking about what you see with them. I look through clear eyes, what you read when i post seems hateful because that's the emotion you identify with when you don't like something.. then, you try to make it look like others are hateful.. It would be best if you stopped trying to create illusions about others, if you would let go of the beliefs and attachments that cause you to to try to make others appear 'hateful'.. Not interested in a GA?.. you want 'me' to stop talking, so you can escape the scrutiny?.. the easiest way to silence scrutiny is with valid discussion that supports your claims, but without that option, you just want scrutiny to stop.. You have taken the position that anyone who criticizes or challenges you must be doing so because of belief and attachment, whereas your pronouncements come from clarity. This is complete nonsense and merely highlights the fear and insecurity you feel which arises precisely because of your beliefs and attachments. I have never heard anyone talk so much about stillness who seems to know so little about it. You fool no one. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 3:47:05 GMT -5
This answered my questions, as the point I often make with you is similar to the one SDP is making. Yes, I can see where there may be a perfect time to hear "just pump the gas". Time to let go of all the teachings, all the ideas about spirituality, even the implications of CC experiences and minor realizations. I do think, though, that there are more people reading here than posting and I have a preference for rounding out statements like "you are what you're searching for" with the qualification that some may need to explore what that "you" is first. I don't talk about it quite the way ZD does, but I understand why he does. He's saying be quiet, look within, look without, pay attention and the truth will come to you because all this spinning is what hides it. I concede that folks are going to explore until they're done exploring, so I join in and try to point out where it goes off the tracks, but I never forget that it's all part of the spiritual circus as a momentum trying to exhaust itself. We can't really say it's necessary. Surely 1000 pages of discussion about whether the perceiver is the perceiving itself, or if we can know if others are appearances or experiencers, is just the circus side show in full swing. It doesn't mean a thing beyond building up one's personal ontology. It doesn't lead to something else. Being quiet and looking leads to something else. Maybe the best we can do here is provide a focus of attention for that looking. Perceiver is perceiving itself is the logical conclusion, but I don't think whether other individual is real or figment is the logical conclusion, instead it's seeing our own limitation to know anything beyond what we actually perceive. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 3:53:54 GMT -5
Yes, we can't really say it's necessary but I can't say it's unnecessary either. Just like there are thoughts that are unnecessary (ruminating about the past, worrying, etc. etc.) and there are thoughts that are useful. In the same way, there are things that can be done that are useful, depending on the individual's personality, inclinations, mind-set and so on. And things that are not and keep us in a spin or, as you say, solidify the personal ontology. I can't say unequivocally that it's all part of the spiritual circus as momentum trying to exhaust itself. Sometimes the spiritual 'activity' is true exploration and discovery that sends the looking to a deeper level. I say all true discovery results from the 'looking' to which ZD and I have both referred. I'm saying, and maybe he is too, that nothing else is of value once you've got yourself oriented as a seeker and have a direction. You know how some students tend to become 'career students'? We have lots of career seekers. The looking you refer and the looking ZD refer differs a lot, ZD says just look without thoughts, this looking put your focus on present moment, but the way you talk is, look what's happening, What he is refering is ATA-T what you are refering is ATA+T. I believe what you talk sometimes work, but ZD talks has it's own boundary, It's Tolle's trap, it attracts it's opposite and influences back, So it bothers about it's own's existence of focusing on the present moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 3:56:19 GMT -5
I look through clear eyes, what you read when i post seems hateful because that's the emotion you identify with when you don't like something.. then, you try to make it look like others are hateful.. It would be best if you stopped trying to create illusions about others, if you would let go of the beliefs and attachments that cause you to to try to make others appear 'hateful'.. Not interested in a GA?.. you want 'me' to stop talking, so you can escape the scrutiny?.. the easiest way to silence scrutiny is with valid discussion that supports your claims, but without that option, you just want scrutiny to stop.. You have taken the position that anyone who criticizes or challenges you must be doing so because of belief and attachment, whereas your pronouncements come from clarity. This is complete nonsense and merely highlights the fear and insecurity you feel which arises precisely because of your beliefs and attachments. I have never heard anyone talk so much about stillness who seems to know so little about it. You fool no one. Sometimes the way he talks brings the meaning to me, but he doesn't seems to be walking in his own words, all we know is, we are perceiving, any other conclusion deriving out of perceiving must be formed by thoughts, So conclusion always paves the way for some other conclusion which falsifies the first one. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 6:19:04 GMT -5
I look through clear eyes, what you read when i post seems hateful because that's the emotion you identify with when you don't like something.. then, you try to make it look like others are hateful.. It would be best if you stopped trying to create illusions about others, if you would let go of the beliefs and attachments that cause you to to try to make others appear 'hateful'.. Not interested in a GA?.. you want 'me' to stop talking, so you can escape the scrutiny?.. the easiest way to silence scrutiny is with valid discussion that supports your claims, but without that option, you just want scrutiny to stop.. You have taken the position that anyone who criticizes or challenges you must be doing so because of belief and attachment, whereas your pronouncements come from clarity. This is complete nonsense and merely highlights the fear and insecurity you feel which arises precisely because of your beliefs and attachments. I have never heard anyone talk so much about stillness who seems to know so little about it. You fool no one.  Catch!  |
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Post by quinn on Apr 10, 2016 7:38:16 GMT -5
Yes, we can't really say it's necessary but I can't say it's unnecessary either. Just like there are thoughts that are unnecessary (ruminating about the past, worrying, etc. etc.) and there are thoughts that are useful. In the same way, there are things that can be done that are useful, depending on the individual's personality, inclinations, mind-set and so on. And things that are not and keep us in a spin or, as you say, solidify the personal ontology. I can't say unequivocally that it's all part of the spiritual circus as momentum trying to exhaust itself. Sometimes the spiritual 'activity' is true exploration and discovery that sends the looking to a deeper level. I say all true discovery results from the 'looking' to which ZD and I have both referred. I'm saying, and maybe he is too, that nothing else is of value once you've got yourself oriented as a seeker and have a direction. You know how some students tend to become 'career students'? We have lots of career seekers. I see you and ZD talking about two different things. Your 'being still and looking' includes thoughts - those useful ones I was talking about. Noticing WIBIGO - notice when the mind appears to be fighting itself, when the walk doesn't match the talk, etc. ZD's 'be still and look' is about being and presence, meeting whatever arises without putting it through the mind-mill first. My impression is that you see what ZD advises as a manifestation of clarity, not as anything that can be done. I totally get the career seeker thing (excellent new disparaging term! heh heh). It's good to highlight potential detours and dead-ends and it's something I've looked at in myself as a result of the discussions here. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 8:39:30 GMT -5
I say all true discovery results from the 'looking' to which ZD and I have both referred. I'm saying, and maybe he is too, that nothing else is of value once you've got yourself oriented as a seeker and have a direction. You know how some students tend to become 'career students'? We have lots of career seekers. The looking you refer and the looking ZD refer differs a lot, ZD says just look without thoughts, this looking put your focus on present moment, but the way you talk is, look what's happening, What he is refering is ATA-T what you are refering is ATA+T. I believe what you talk sometimes work, but ZD talks has it's own boundary, It's Tolle's trap, it attracts it's opposite and influences back, So it bothers about it's own's existence of focusing on the present moment. I say all true discovery results from the 'looking' to which ZD and I have both referred. I'm saying, and maybe he is too, that nothing else is of value once you've got yourself oriented as a seeker and have a direction. You know how some students tend to become 'career students'? We have lots of career seekers. - those useful ones I was talking about. Noticing WIBIGO - notice when the mind appears to be fighting itself, when the walk doesn't match the talk, etc. ZD's 'be still and look' is about being and presence, meeting whatever arises without putting it through the mind-mill first. My impression is that you see what ZD advises as a manifestation of clarity, not as anything that can be done. I totally get the career seeker thing (excellent new disparaging term! heh heh). It's good to highlight potential detours and dead-ends and it's something I've looked at in myself as a result of the discussions here. Very nicely put, that's what I have written as well, Enigma was talking about ATA+T but ZD is talking about ATA-T. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 8:46:31 GMT -5
The looking you refer and the looking ZD refer differs a lot, ZD says just look without thoughts, this looking put your focus on present moment, but the way you talk is, look what's happening, What he is refering is ATA-T what you are refering is ATA+T. I believe what you talk sometimes work, but ZD talks has it's own boundary, It's Tolle's trap, it attracts it's opposite and influences back, So it bothers about it's own's existence of focusing on the present moment. I see you and ZD talking about two different things. Your 'being still and looking' includes thoughts - those useful ones I was talking about. Noticing WIBIGO - notice when the mind appears to be fighting itself, when the walk doesn't match the talk, etc. ZD's 'be still and look' is about being and presence, meeting whatever arises without putting it through the mind-mill first. My impression is that you see what ZD advises as a manifestation of clarity, not as anything that can be done. I totally get the career seeker thing (excellent new disparaging term! heh heh). It's good to highlight potential detours and dead-ends and it's something I've looked at in myself as a result of the discussions here. Very nicely put, that's what I have written as well, Enigma was talking about ATA+T but ZD is talking about ATA-T. Okay so which one leads to enlightenment, +T or -T? |
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Post by tzujanli on Apr 10, 2016 9:05:43 GMT -5
Very nicely put, that's what I have written as well, Enigma was talking about ATA+T but ZD is talking about ATA-T. Okay so which one leads to enlightenment, +T or -T? There is no 'enlightenment', when the experiencer returns to neutral there is only their relationship with the happening.. stillness (-T) is essential for clarity, thinking (+T) is essential for survival, and 'enlightenment' is an illusion that traps seekers in an ideological belief-system.. Actual liberation, freedom from the known, is terrifying for many people so they conjure attachments that serve as anchors and safety from the fear of letting it ALL go.. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 10, 2016 9:10:26 GMT -5
Very nicely put, that's what I have written as well, Enigma was talking about ATA+T but ZD is talking about ATA-T. Okay so which one leads to enlightenment, +T or -T? Neither. But (for me, AFAIAC) it's like planting crops. ATA-T is like plowing a field. You might have a crop if you just throw seeds out in a field. But you are going to have better results if you plow the field, turn over the soil, make rows, make a furrow or hills, plant the seed, correct depth, water it, cover it. And you get better results planting at the right time for the right crop. IMvhO&E ATA+T is a misnomer. What you are actually doing is moving back and forth between ATA-T, and thinking. I find that ATA actually stops thought, thus, it becomes ATA-T. So, there is either ATA-T, or thinking. ATA+T is something else. (This is beyond verbal debate. It has to come from personal exploration). Mileage may vary. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 9:12:00 GMT -5
Very nicely put, that's what I have written as well, Enigma was talking about ATA+T but ZD is talking about ATA-T. Okay so which one leads to enlightenment, +T or -T? Neither, 'Order' decides! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 9:15:20 GMT -5
Okay so which one leads to enlightenment, +T or -T? Neither. But (for me, AFAIAC) it like planting crops. ATA-T is like plowing a field. You might have a crop if you just throw seeds out in a field. But you are going to have better results if you plow the field, turn over the soil, make rows, make a furrow or hills, plant the seed, correct depth, water it, cover it. And you get better results planting at the right time for the right crop. IMvhO&E ATA+T is a misnomer. What you are actually doing is moving back and forth between ATA-T, and thinking. I find that ATA actually stops thought, thus, it becomes ATA-T. So, there is either ATA-T, or thinking. ATA+T is something else. (This is beyond verbal debate. It has to come from personal exploration). Mileage may vary. ATA-T doesn't lead anywhere because ATA-T itself is a creation, Creation always influences it's opposite and recreates it. ATA+T doesn't lead anywhere because it expects something to be noticed. |
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