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May 29, 2024 22:50:13 GMT -5
Post by Gopal on May 29, 2024 22:50:13 GMT -5
Life is a rollercoaster; this much I know, and I have seen it clearly. After moments of happiness, there are inevitable lows. Everything around me moves to confirm this rollercoaster. The heights and depths we experience determine the peace in our lives—what else truly matters? As a matter of perspectives, consider the perception of the gravity of the roller coaster ride: a) sitting on the roller coaster for the first time as it goes up, down, and all around, b) from the side as an observer of the whole ride, peeps on the ride, listening to the screams/enjoyment, and c) from above with an attitude of "been there, done that, and this is where it gets interesting". Which one is more drama-tic, and which one is more conducive to peace? From what you write here, I do understand you haven't had that realization. So, explaining what rollercoaster to you wouldn't work. |
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May 30, 2024 11:52:43 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on May 30, 2024 11:52:43 GMT -5
Life is a rollercoaster; this much I know, and I have seen it clearly. After moments of happiness, there are inevitable lows. Everything around me moves to confirm this rollercoaster. The heights and depths we experience determine the peace in our lives—what else truly matters? Look at a pendulum. The swing back and forth is like a rollercoaster, but a pendulum is attached to a single unmoving point. You can find that central unmoving point. Yes, I like the pendulum dealio with its axis mundi flavor a bit more than the roller coaster. So, if what by you mean as 'further/more' is that the pendulum keeps swinging as the life of the mind-body within 'oneness', then you've been understood and agreed with numerous times. At times, you seem to take it a bit further, by seemingly adding or proposing an 'en summum' argument (one's gotta do all these things and understand this/that to get to the 'unmoving point', rather than being content with 'ipsum esse' and saying, "But, I like exploring potentials." Does that make sense? |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 30, 2024 12:08:50 GMT -5
One of the Cohen brother's finest movies!  I replied to SDP with it, hoping he, as a movie buff, might comment on it. The Cohen brothers were deeply influenced by William Faulkner, and I sometimes get the feeling SDP has a Faulkneresque bent to him. WF was a gifted writer who constantly evoked some confusion as his explorations tinkered with the twists of the human mind. “Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.” ― William Faulkner, The Sound and the Fury“We must be free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it.” ― William Faulkner, Essays, Speeches & Public Letters“I feel like a wet seed wild in the hot blind earth.” ― William Faulkner, As I Lay Dying “People to whom sin is just a matter of words, to them salvation is just words too.” ― William Faulkner, As I Lay DyingI had some potential replies in mind, but maybe it was taken in a different light. Interesting quotes. As an engineering Philistine I am ignorant of the man, other than the name itself.  .. sad for us techno's, really, reading the initial google results. As for the other dialog about the Greeks etc ... it's the kind of conversation that beer and a starlit night were made for!  .. the English translation of the math vid is: "counterintuitively, not all infinities are created equal, in fact, some infinities fit inside of other infinities  " .. in a way, it's the mental hyjinx of putting infinity in a box, and the only reason I don't dismiss it as such is that it has real-word applications. Well, I didn't know much about WF either until I was backtracking the influences of the Coen brothers, whose movies I've always enjoyed. I'm not all that widely read as I tend to tunnel in on what is immediately of interest or need, annoyingly so at times. There are indeed times when I wish I could more fully appreciate the poetry of the engineering/math world. But, yes, from what I've gathered, a lot of what is understood by these kinds of studies is not so much about 'exactly' how the math and principles are working (i.e., together), but by what is coming out the other end, both empirically and statistically, and the accuracy of predictive probability continues to astonish. I know there is a lot more to it, but I think that is about right. |
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May 30, 2024 12:24:19 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on May 30, 2024 12:24:19 GMT -5
As a matter of perspectives, consider the perception of the gravity of the roller coaster ride: a) sitting on the roller coaster for the first time as it goes up, down, and all around, b) from the side as an observer of the whole ride, peeps on the ride, listening to the screams/enjoyment, and c) from above with an attitude of "been there, done that, and this is where it gets interesting". Which one is more drama-tic, and which one is more conducive to peace? From what you write here, I do understand you haven't had that realization. So, explaining what rollercoaster to you wouldn't work. It was just another take on "Know Thyself", but maybe, at times, I'd lean in on 'but without a self'. Not today. It's a fact that no one has experienced the roller coaster like your mind-body, but perhaps you just don't think others appreciate the conclusive evidence you're amassing for the insight you have grown fond of. |
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May 30, 2024 14:04:05 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 30, 2024 14:04:05 GMT -5
Look at a pendulum. The swing back and forth is like a rollercoaster, but a pendulum is attached to a single unmoving point. You can find that central unmoving point. Yes, I like the pendulum dealio with its axis mundi flavor a bit more than the roller coaster. So, if what by you mean as 'further/more' is that the pendulum keeps swinging as the life of the mind-body within 'oneness', then you've been understood and agreed with numerous times. At times, you seem to take it a bit further, by seemingly adding or proposing an 'en summum' argument (one's gotta do all these things and understand this/that to get to the 'unmoving point', rather than being content with 'ipsum esse' and saying, "But, I like exploring potentials." Does that make sense? Makes sense, but no, that's not what I mean. Yes, this is what I mean. I will explain further in reply to your reply to Gopal. This will speak to Gopal's POV also, and pull in part of my signature below, you can't see above your own level of being (but you can get a glimpse, a blink). Gopal can't see past the rollercoaster. This is my second try, as earlier there was a glitch in the matrix...an angry proboards bear. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 30, 2024 15:14:48 GMT -5
From what you write here, I do understand you haven't had that realization. So, explaining what rollercoaster to you wouldn't work. It was just another take on "Know Thyself", but maybe, at times, I'd lean in on 'but without a self'. Not today. It's a fact that no one has experienced the roller coaster like your mind-body, but perhaps you just don't think others appreciate the conclusive evidence you're amassing for the insight you have grown fond of. First, I don't deny any claim by any ND-non-person. I will give the Gurdjieff cosmology and anthropology simplified. I will try to do it vertically, but not sure it will post that way. World #1 [One], The Absolute, the highest vibration, so fine it's almost a line ________ World #3, the One, as a kind of step-down transformer, becomes three [forces, active/positive, passive/negative, neutralizing-reconciling-balancing; or, the 3 Gunas, Rajas, Tamas, Sattva]. A more-coarse vibration ~~~~~~~~ World #6, by a combining of triads, 3 becomes 6, again, a step-down transformer, a yet more coarse vibration ~~~~~~World #12, again, by combining triads, 6 becomes 12, again, stepping down the energy, yet coarser vibration. ~~~~~~World #24, again, by a combining of triads (of the 3 forces or the 3 Gunas), 12 becomes 24, yet coarser vibration ~~~~~~World #48, same process, 24 becomes 48. This is our manifest world, the periodic table of Elements, ~~~~~~~~~~~World #96, this is a realm below us, the "hungry ghost" world ~~~~~~~~~~Gurdjieff taught this in 1912, eleven years after Planck's 1901 quantum theory. And Planck even thought his quantum theory was a mathematical trick. It took Einstein in his 1905 Photoelectric Effect Paper to demonstrate reality does indeed operate according to quantum principles. Why do I bring this up? Gurdjieff taught in 1912 that reality was structured on the principle of discontinuity, just like quantum mechanics (physics). In a very real sense there is a gap, a void, between each World. Quantum means a discrete packet of energy. So the flow of energy is not continuous, it comes in chunks. (Again, Einstein showed this in his 1905 PEEP). In the famous quantum leap, taking an electron for example, when an electron absorbs a photon, it jumps to a higher orbit, as it has more energy. And, this is the kicker, it does so instantaneously, not traversing either time or space. In the '20s one of the formers of QM said if he had known about all this damn quantum jumping he'd have become a plumber. "If all this damned quantum jumping were really here to stay, I should be sorry, I should be sorry I ever got involved with quantum theory". — Erwin Schrödinger So, Gurdjieff said that the Worlds are discontinuous, IOW, there is a gap between each World. He said each World can be taken as zero to infinity. Did Gurdjieff get his idea of discontinuity from Planck and Einstein? He stayed up on current news, but he said he did not create the teaching, he was merely passing on what he had been taught. So I would say he knew of this discontinuity previous to Planck or Einstein. OK, all that gets me to your answer. I have a predilection to consider that [your] nonduality, is the nonduality of World #48, or possibly World #48 + World #24. Gopal is stuck in the rollercoaster world of duality, World #48. He thinks he sees the Whole, he can't see above his own level of being. So why do I say this? Gurdjieff said the being of human beings does not originate in World #1. So no human being can experience the Origin, World #1. Gurdjieff was a little fuzzy on man's origin, could be World #6, possibly World #3, most likely World #6. You see how it would be impossible to experience the universe above whatever it is your being is ~constructed-from~? So that's what further means. It is possible to experience World #24, World #12, World #6, possibly World #3. That's the meaning of the evolution of consciousness. I've said numerous times, it's possible to take-in more of time and more of space. And all that's why I say I value experience over realization. OK, one more thing. Gurdjieff said we do not have a soul, we only have the embryo of a soul, we are a seed. The embryo comes-from World #6 (or possibly World #3, again, Gurdjieff didn't say specifically). The practices are about growing the embryo, they have absolutely zero to do with the so-called SVP, or the self-avatar (called personality in the teaching, it's the conditioning, I've gone into it extensively). And this is precisely the same as taught in Taoist alchemy, the language is very nearly the same, Taoist alchemy was the 4th way of its time, and it actually still exists today. In Taoist alchemy practice is called cultivation. OK, one more thing. Niz was taught all this by his teacher, Niz made a book from his teacher's teachings, you can get it on Amazon. The soul would be equivalent to the Causal body. The Causal body is not fully formed, life is about ~growing~ the Causal body. So all this is traditional Vedanta. Our Source derives from World #1 (as World #1 is the basis of everything existing, World #48 could not exist without World #1), but our-life is merely loaned to us, ~*"we"*~ are still subject to the law of entropy. OK, I'd better stop there...but most of this is covered in In Search of the Miraculous (PD Ouspensky) We can only experience >what's [out] there< only to the extent our higher bodies are formed (for example the Causal body-soul). CME (coronal mass ejections) have existed for thousands of years, but we didn't know of their existence until we have instruments to measure them. We had auroras for thousands of years, but nobody knew why. I promise I will stop, but there would be nonduality of World #48, nonduality of World #24 [which would include #48]. There would be a nonduality of World #12, which would include #24 and #48. There would be a nonduality of World #6, which would include #12, #24, #48. But the reverse is not true, unless one has formed a finer body composed of the vibratory level of that higher world. Again, this is the principle, you can see above your own level of being. We're all waiting for Gopal to get the encompassing beyond the dual world. |
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May 30, 2024 17:17:54 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 30, 2024 17:17:54 GMT -5
“As a child I felt myself to be alone, and I am still, because I know things and must hint at things which others apparently know nothing of, and for the most part do not want to know.”
― Carl Gustav Jung
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May 30, 2024 18:09:55 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 30, 2024 18:09:55 GMT -5
“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
― C.G. Jung
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May 30, 2024 19:22:09 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on May 30, 2024 19:22:09 GMT -5
“Your visions will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.”
― C.G. Jung
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May 31, 2024 0:09:37 GMT -5
Post by Gopal on May 31, 2024 0:09:37 GMT -5
It was just another take on "Know Thyself", but maybe, at times, I'd lean in on 'but without a self'. Not today. It's a fact that no one has experienced the roller coaster like your mind-body, but perhaps you just don't think others appreciate the conclusive evidence you're amassing for the insight you have grown fond of. First, I don't deny any claim by any ND-non-person. I will give the Gurdjieff cosmology and anthropology simplified. I will try to do it vertically, but not sure it will post that way. World #1 [One], The Absolute, the highest vibration, so fine it's almost a line ________ World #3, the One, as a kind of step-down transformer, becomes three [forces, active/positive, passive/negative, neutralizing-reconciling-balancing; or, the 3 Gunas, Rajas, Tamas, Sattva]. A more-coarse vibration ~~~~~~~~ World #6, by a combining of triads, 3 becomes 6, again, a step-down transformer, a yet more coarse vibration ~~~~~~World #12, again, by combining triads, 6 becomes 12, again, stepping down the energy, yet coarser vibration. ~~~~~~World #24, again, by a combining of triads (of the 3 forces or the 3 Gunas), 12 becomes 24, yet coarser vibration ~~~~~~World #48, same process, 24 becomes 48. This is our manifest world, the periodic table of Elements, ~~~~~~~~~~~World #96, this is a realm below us, the "hungry ghost" world ~~~~~~~~~~Gurdjieff taught this in 1912, eleven years after Planck's 1901 quantum theory. And Planck even thought his quantum theory was a mathematical trick. It took Einstein in his 1905 Photoelectric Effect Paper to demonstrate reality does indeed operate according to quantum principles. Why do I bring this up? Gurdjieff taught in 1912 that reality was structured on the principle of discontinuity, just like quantum mechanics (physics). In a very real sense there is a gap, a void, between each World. Quantum means a discrete packet of energy. So the flow of energy is not continuous, it comes in chunks. (Again, Einstein showed this in his 1905 PEEP). In the famous quantum leap, taking an electron for example, when an electron absorbs a photon, it jumps to a higher orbit, as it has more energy. And, this is the kicker, it does so instantaneously, not traversing either time or space. In the '20s one of the formers of QM said if he had known about all this damn quantum jumping he'd have become a plumber. "If all this damned quantum jumping were really here to stay, I should be sorry, I should be sorry I ever got involved with quantum theory". — Erwin Schrödinger So, Gurdjieff said that the Worlds are discontinuous, IOW, there is a gap between each World. He said each World can be taken as zero to infinity. Did Gurdjieff get his idea of discontinuity from Planck and Einstein? He stayed up on current news, but he said he did not create the teaching, he was merely passing on what he had been taught. So I would say he knew of this discontinuity previous to Planck or Einstein. OK, all that gets me to your answer. I have a predilection to consider that [your] nonduality, is the nonduality of World #48, or possibly World #48 + World #24. Gopal is stuck in the rollercoaster world of duality, World #48. He thinks he sees the Whole, he can't see above his own level of being. So why do I say this? Gurdjieff said the being of human beings does not originate in World #1. So no human being can experience the Origin, World #1. Gurdjieff was a little fuzzy on man's origin, could be World #6, possibly World #3, most likely World #6. You see how it would be impossible to experience the universe above whatever it is your being is ~constructed-from~? So that's what further means. It is possible to experience World #24, World #12, World #6, possibly World #3. That's the meaning of the evolution of consciousness. I've said numerous times, it's possible to take-in more of time and more of space. And all that's why I say I value experience over realization. OK, one more thing. Gurdjieff said we do not have a soul, we only have the embryo of a soul, we are a seed. The embryo comes-from World #6 (or possibly World #3, again, Gurdjieff didn't say specifically). The practices are about growing the embryo, they have absolutely zero to do with the so-called SVP, or the self-avatar (called personality in the teaching, it's the conditioning, I've gone into it extensively). And this is precisely the same as taught in Taoist alchemy, the language is very nearly the same, Taoist alchemy was the 4th way of its time, and it actually still exists today. In Taoist alchemy practice is called cultivation. OK, one more thing. Niz was taught all this by his teacher, Niz made a book from his teacher's teachings, you can get it on Amazon. The soul would be equivalent to the Causal body. The Causal body is not fully formed, life is about ~growing~ the Causal body. So all this is traditional Vedanta. Our Source derives from World #1 (as World #1 is the basis of everything existing, World #48 could not exist without World #1), but our-life is merely loaned to us, ~*"we"*~ are still subject to the law of entropy. OK, I'd better stop there...but most of this is covered in In Search of the Miraculous (PD Ouspensky) We can only experience >what's [out] there< only to the extent our higher bodies are formed (for example the Causal body-soul). CME (coronal mass ejections) have existed for thousands of years, but we didn't know of their existence until we have instruments to measure them. We had auroras for thousands of years, but nobody knew why. I promise I will stop, but there would be nonduality of World #48, nonduality of World #24 [which would include #48]. There would be a nonduality of World #12, which would include #24 and #48. There would be a nonduality of World #6, which would include #12, #24, #48. But the reverse is not true, unless one has formed a finer body composed of the vibratory level of that higher world. Again, this is the principle, you can see above your own level of being. We're all waiting for Gopal to get the encompassing beyond the dual world. Consciousness is experiencing the life between the polarities all the time, when it goes, it has to come down. But it's not known to many people because it's not that much predictive. |
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May 31, 2024 19:27:35 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on May 31, 2024 19:27:35 GMT -5
First, I don't deny any claim by any ND-non-person. I will give the Gurdjieff cosmology and anthropology simplified. I will try to do it vertically, but not sure it will post that way. World #1 [One], The Absolute, the highest vibration, so fine it's almost a line ________ World #3, the One, as a kind of step-down transformer, becomes three [forces, active/positive, passive/negative, neutralizing-reconciling-balancing; or, the 3 Gunas, Rajas, Tamas, Sattva]. A more-coarse vibration ~~~~~~~~ World #6, by a combining of triads, 3 becomes 6, again, a step-down transformer, a yet more coarse vibration ~~~~~~World #12, again, by combining triads, 6 becomes 12, again, stepping down the energy, yet coarser vibration. ~~~~~~World #24, again, by a combining of triads (of the 3 forces or the 3 Gunas), 12 becomes 24, yet coarser vibration ~~~~~~World #48, same process, 24 becomes 48. This is our manifest world, the periodic table of Elements, ~~~~~~~~~~~World #96, this is a realm below us, the "hungry ghost" world ~~~~~~~~~~Gurdjieff taught this in 1912, eleven years after Planck's 1901 quantum theory. And Planck even thought his quantum theory was a mathematical trick. It took Einstein in his 1905 Photoelectric Effect Paper to demonstrate reality does indeed operate according to quantum principles. Why do I bring this up? Gurdjieff taught in 1912 that reality was structured on the principle of discontinuity, just like quantum mechanics (physics). In a very real sense there is a gap, a void, between each World. Quantum means a discrete packet of energy. So the flow of energy is not continuous, it comes in chunks. (Again, Einstein showed this in his 1905 PEEP). In the famous quantum leap, taking an electron for example, when an electron absorbs a photon, it jumps to a higher orbit, as it has more energy. And, this is the kicker, it does so instantaneously, not traversing either time or space. In the '20s one of the formers of QM said if he had known about all this damn quantum jumping he'd have become a plumber. "If all this damned quantum jumping were really here to stay, I should be sorry, I should be sorry I ever got involved with quantum theory". — Erwin Schrödinger So, Gurdjieff said that the Worlds are discontinuous, IOW, there is a gap between each World. He said each World can be taken as zero to infinity. Did Gurdjieff get his idea of discontinuity from Planck and Einstein? He stayed up on current news, but he said he did not create the teaching, he was merely passing on what he had been taught. So I would say he knew of this discontinuity previous to Planck or Einstein. OK, all that gets me to your answer. I have a predilection to consider that [your] nonduality, is the nonduality of World #48, or possibly World #48 + World #24. Gopal is stuck in the rollercoaster world of duality, World #48. He thinks he sees the Whole, he can't see above his own level of being. So why do I say this? Gurdjieff said the being of human beings does not originate in World #1. So no human being can experience the Origin, World #1. Gurdjieff was a little fuzzy on man's origin, could be World #6, possibly World #3, most likely World #6. You see how it would be impossible to experience the universe above whatever it is your being is ~constructed-from~? So that's what further means. It is possible to experience World #24, World #12, World #6, possibly World #3. That's the meaning of the evolution of consciousness. I've said numerous times, it's possible to take-in more of time and more of space. And all that's why I say I value experience over realization. OK, one more thing. Gurdjieff said we do not have a soul, we only have the embryo of a soul, we are a seed. The embryo comes-from World #6 (or possibly World #3, again, Gurdjieff didn't say specifically). The practices are about growing the embryo, they have absolutely zero to do with the so-called SVP, or the self-avatar (called personality in the teaching, it's the conditioning, I've gone into it extensively). And this is precisely the same as taught in Taoist alchemy, the language is very nearly the same, Taoist alchemy was the 4th way of its time, and it actually still exists today. In Taoist alchemy practice is called cultivation. OK, one more thing. Niz was taught all this by his teacher, Niz made a book from his teacher's teachings, you can get it on Amazon. The soul would be equivalent to the Causal body. The Causal body is not fully formed, life is about ~growing~ the Causal body. So all this is traditional Vedanta. Our Source derives from World #1 (as World #1 is the basis of everything existing, World #48 could not exist without World #1), but our-life is merely loaned to us, ~*"we"*~ are still subject to the law of entropy. OK, I'd better stop there...but most of this is covered in In Search of the Miraculous (PD Ouspensky) We can only experience >what's [out] there< only to the extent our higher bodies are formed (for example the Causal body-soul). CME (coronal mass ejections) have existed for thousands of years, but we didn't know of their existence until we have instruments to measure them. We had auroras for thousands of years, but nobody knew why. I promise I will stop, but there would be nonduality of World #48, nonduality of World #24 [which would include #48]. There would be a nonduality of World #12, which would include #24 and #48. There would be a nonduality of World #6, which would include #12, #24, #48. But the reverse is not true, unless one has formed a finer body composed of the vibratory level of that higher world. Again, this is the principle, you can see above your own level of being. We're all waiting for Gopal to get the encompassing beyond the dual world. Consciousness is experiencing the life between the polarities all the time, when it goes, it has to come down. But it's not known to many people because it's not that much predictive. For the record, I do understand this, so you don't have to explain it.  |
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Jun 1, 2024 0:27:13 GMT -5
Post by Gopal on Jun 1, 2024 0:27:13 GMT -5
Consciousness is experiencing the life between the polarities all the time, when it goes, it has to come down. But it's not known to many people because it's not that much predictive. For the record, I do understand this, so you don't have to explain it. You understood yes. But haven't realized. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 1, 2024 12:17:53 GMT -5
For the record, I do understand this, so you don't have to explain it. You understood yes. But haven't realized. Existentially, as it is seen Here, there's the fall, and then there's the recovery from the fall; the Maha roller coaster. Both are born of the unborn, 'with' which the I AM can consciously Realize, and consciously be at one with. There is the possibility that I may not have understood some of the nuances or missed some of the posts, making it impossible for such a 'realization'of what you are specifically pointing to. But it does seem to point to worldly matters, which is fine. What is telling the mind that someNOTHING has not 'realized' the conception of the roller coaster you have thus far presented? Is it the mind's logic, the perceived attitude, the feeling, etc that the mind is drawing its conclusions from? Please express the answer from a more contemplative mind, rather than from the calculating argumentative one that you seem to prefer and/or invite. |
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Jul 30, 2024 14:31:28 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 30, 2024 14:31:28 GMT -5
We cling to our own point of view ,
as though everything depended on it.
Yet our opinions
have no permanence ;
like autumn and winter ,
they gradually pass away
— Chuang Tzu —
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Post by inavalan on Aug 7, 2024 1:20:22 GMT -5
- Those who are ignorant of the law of mind and how it works, often remark, "I wasn't thinking of becoming sick, or having an automobile accident, or losing my job." They believe that by tossing the whole subject off in this way, they have made their point. We never say to another, "Oh, you just think you're sick," nor, "Think you are well and you will be." If illness and pain are pictured as experiences, they are seen to be due to beliefs which are heavily laden with the wrong kind of emotions. Fault-finding, nagging, and bickering are ways of thinking due to emotions whic produce all the ills man is prone to get. If such attitudes coming from others set your teeth on edge, how much greater is the effect upon those who thusly engage themselves? It makes them headachey, nervous and sickly. Those who tell themselves that they are justified in hating someone who has been cruel, unfair or despicable have yet to learn that hating harms only the hater. Thus, " Love your enemies."
-- from "The Power of Universal Mind" by Muriel Noyes Gillchrest
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.. sad for us techno's, really, reading the initial google results. 
.. the English translation of the math vid is: "counterintuitively, not all infinities are created equal, in fact, some infinities fit inside of other infinities 
" .. in a way, it's the mental hyjinx of putting infinity in a box, and the only reason I don't dismiss it as such is that it has real-word applications.
