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Post by figgles on Jan 27, 2016 12:29:49 GMT -5
...Yes, agreed, and being consciously aware of the purpose the habit has been serving (self soothing in most cases) and in engaging in the behavior consciously if the desire to engage should arise, the habitual aspect of the behavior falls away.
I've always said that if one could smoke, or eat, (even 3 pieces of cake sometimes), drink, suck their thumb, chew their nails, whatever, fully conscious of all aspects inherent in the behavior as they engaged, the sense of feeling compelled towards that behavior/activity would fall away. Thus, it is very possible one can eat whatever they desire to eat, and not get fat...and smoke when they feel like smoking and not have it become a compulsion, etc, etc. The split mind is about plausible deniability. One must feel compelled to do something one pretends he does not really want to do. I would say, Absent 'compulsion', there is no 'habit.' |
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Post by figgles on Jan 27, 2016 12:31:19 GMT -5
Sure but in the absence of illusion there's never any wishing or hope for one that didn't grow out of the ground and has only one end to it.  Yes, the price of freedom is all those delusion based carrots....except MTV, of course.  BTW, I like the meataphor of the two ended carrot. The promise of freedom is not itself a carrot?  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 16:48:29 GMT -5
Habits are unconscious programs. ...Yes, agreed, and being consciously aware of the purpose the habit has been serving ( self soothing in most cases) and in engaging in the behavior consciously if the desire to engage should arise, the habitual aspect of the behavior falls away. I've always said that if one could smoke, or eat, (even 3 pieces of cake sometimes), drink, suck their thumb, chew their nails, whatever, fully conscious of all aspects inherent in the behavior as they engaged, the sense of feeling compelled towards that behavior/activity would fall away. Thus, it is very possible one can eat whatever they desire to eat, and not get fat...and smoke when they feel like smoking and not have it become a compulsion, etc, etc. Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 16:49:17 GMT -5
Sure but in the absence of illusion there's never any wishing or hope for one that didn't grow out of the ground and has only one end to it. I'm just talking 'bout regular carrots. Riiiight, sure ya' were. |
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Post by figgles on Jan 27, 2016 16:54:32 GMT -5
...Yes, agreed, and being consciously aware of the purpose the habit has been serving ( self soothing in most cases) and in engaging in the behavior consciously if the desire to engage should arise, the habitual aspect of the behavior falls away. I've always said that if one could smoke, or eat, (even 3 pieces of cake sometimes), drink, suck their thumb, chew their nails, whatever, fully conscious of all aspects inherent in the behavior as they engaged, the sense of feeling compelled towards that behavior/activity would fall away. Thus, it is very possible one can eat whatever they desire to eat, and not get fat...and smoke when they feel like smoking and not have it become a compulsion, etc, etc. Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. Bad habits? All in the eye of the beholder really. But yeah, I would tend to agree from where I stand. If one is feeling lethargic, and that is not wanted, the effects of caffeine can indeed help/soothe that. If one is feeling bored, depressed, sad, (or any other feeling he/she would like to escape from), drugs will help them do that too...same with anything (TV included) that serves to remove focus from what is unwanted. What we are both agreeing are 'bad habits' likely initially began as a means in one moment to make an unwanted feeling go away. (soothe it). |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 17:06:28 GMT -5
Right, you saw an appearance that is the same thing no matter what we call it, but what I was pointing out was a fine distinction. In one case, the internal resistance is active, in the other it's not. In both cases, the outcome is the same: a cigarette not smoked. I could also (likely would have been better if I had) said; Regardless of how one gets there, if/when the smoking habit truly ceases to be, fundamental to that is the fact that the desire to self soothe through that behavior lost it's intensity to a greater desire/want/intent...in some cases that desire/intent just might be 'to be free' of all need to be dependent upon conditions to self soothe. All you have to do to see how far you've morphed away from the original dialog is to go back and read what you're saying you would have written that in response to. It doesn't follow from it at all, and it's not anything that I have any interest in other than to point that out about it. Keep in mind context here; we were talking about the presence of a habit, wanting to end that habit and the eventual cessation of that habit. Surrender may indeed have played a part in the cessation of your own smoking habit, but if you try to tell me there was no sense of satisfaction involved at all in the end result of that cessation, or even now as you look back, I'd question that. In contrast, this gets right to the heart of the subtle distinction that my original point didn't convey to you, so it does draw my interest to respond to it: Genuine surrender is timeless, satisfaction, is time-bound. If that is what happens, (an experience of exerting will), then that too is reflective of the 'top' or presiding desire. If I am experiencing exerting my will to refrain from eating a third slice of cake, it is because there's a strong desire there not to eat cake. The experience of 'will power' arises via desire. The sense of having to 'exert will' just means that the desire to eat cake, is a close second. Sure, no argument here. A peep exerting will is just playing with what arises, which you've characterized in terms of desire and intensity thereof. If the will power seems to fade, it's just that the desire that gave rise to that, waned and the desire to eat or whatever, gained in intensity. Yeah, that's just another restatement of the tautology. Nope. I find Your thinking processes and how you express them, are at times difficult to follow. We've been down this road before. You're interested in the conclusions, but only if they're presented without what naturally led to them. This is because it's easier to generate argument in response to the conclusions stated without their full premise. You simply have a problem with admitting that you're wrong -- just go back and look at how this dialog started to see what I mean. In contrast I've admitted multiple times that I didn't manage to convey what I meant to originally. Looking back, it would have been more effective for me to get across the nature of my failure if I hadn't cast it as your misunderstanding -- but that seems to be a bad habit I've picked up from dialogs with you, andy, tzu' and others here over the years. The fault, in that instance, is 100% mine. That said, I did express the understanding as to why you would have thought what I wrote equated surrender and will power, and admit the fact that what you decided not to bother to try to understand was rather dense. I asked the question to E about control from a position of already clearly seeing myself, that it is always the top desire that wins out, not the application of will power or control that somehow lies contrary to desire. I wanted to see if he saw it that way too (I am not getting that he does)... my point being; Control or exertion of will may be what it looks like on the surface of things, or what is experienced, but underneath that, is the playing out, unfolding of, the fulfillment of the reigning desire. You are characterizing your position as one of clarity, but we disagree about that, and in case you didn't notice, that disagreement is what underlies the dialog. You read-in the suggestion of control where it wasn't there. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 17:11:15 GMT -5
Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. Bad habits? All in the eye of the beholder really. But yeah, I would tend to agree from where I stand. If one is feeling lethargic, and that is not wanted, the effects of caffeine can indeed help/soothe that. If one is feeling bored, depressed, sad, (or any other feeling he/she would like to escape from), drugs will help them do that too...same with anything (TV included) that serves to remove focus from what is unwanted. What we are both agreeing are 'bad habits' likely initially began as a means in one moment to make an unwanted feeling go away. (soothe it). Congratulations on your assassination of the word "SOOTH".   |
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Post by andrew on Jan 27, 2016 17:17:09 GMT -5
...Yes, agreed, and being consciously aware of the purpose the habit has been serving ( self soothing in most cases) and in engaging in the behavior consciously if the desire to engage should arise, the habitual aspect of the behavior falls away. I've always said that if one could smoke, or eat, (even 3 pieces of cake sometimes), drink, suck their thumb, chew their nails, whatever, fully conscious of all aspects inherent in the behavior as they engaged, the sense of feeling compelled towards that behavior/activity would fall away. Thus, it is very possible one can eat whatever they desire to eat, and not get fat...and smoke when they feel like smoking and not have it become a compulsion, etc, etc. Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. I have to say that I often found amphetamines to be very soothing 20 years ago. I was a much calmer, less anxious, person when taking them. But I'm not the only one. Though the after effects could last a few days and they weren't soothing (hence why some folks get into a loop of taking more to feel better). I also know people that found cocaine soothing (I didn't). Sometimes I find coffee has a somewhat calming affect, but not if it's too strong. I think for folks that have strong mental/creative energy, some stimulants can sooth the mind temporarily, though there is often a price to pay for it. Folks with ADD that listen to binaural beats are sometimes advised to speed their brain waves up a bit...the speeding up sort of 'smooths' out the mental jerking, thus calming the individual. Perhaps some stimulants have a similar effect, though I don't know. Hello to all by the way, I'm not on here much at the moment. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 17:21:04 GMT -5
Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. I have to say that I often found amphetamines to be very soothing 20 years ago. I was a much calmer, less anxious, person when taking them. But I'm not the only one. Though the after effects could last a few days and they weren't soothing (hence why some folks get into a loop of taking more to feel better). I also know people that found cocaine soothing (I didn't). Sometimes I find coffee has a somewhat calming affect, but not if it's too strong. I think for folks that have strong mental/creative energy, some stimulants can sooth the mind temporarily, though there is often a price to pay for it. Folks with ADD that listen to binaural beats are sometimes advised to speed their brain waves up a bit...the speeding up sort of 'smooths' out the mental jerking, thus calming the individual. Perhaps some stimulants have a similar effect, though I don't know. Hello to all by the way, I'm not on here much at the moment. How 'bout a 100 page 10 hour MT jag with laffy? Would that be soothing?  ... (just bustin' yer chops dude) |
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Post by zin on Jan 27, 2016 17:43:16 GMT -5
Nothing soothing at all about caffeine, meth, white powder cocaine or even TV drama's engineered around fictional or real-life meltdowns. "Bad habits", each and every one. I have to say that I often found amphetamines to be very soothing 20 years ago. I was a much calmer, less anxious, person when taking them. But I'm not the only one. Though the after effects could last a few days and they weren't soothing (hence why some folks get into a loop of taking more to feel better). I also know people that found cocaine soothing (I didn't). Sometimes I find coffee has a somewhat calming affect, but not if it's too strong. I think for folks that have strong mental/creative energy, some stimulants can sooth the mind temporarily, though there is often a price to pay for it. Folks with ADD that listen to binaural beats are sometimes advised to speed their brain waves up a bit...the speeding up sort of 'smooths' out the mental jerking, thus calming the individual. Perhaps some stimulants have a similar effect, though I don't know. Hello to all by the way, I'm not on here much at the moment. Hello andrew!  ...I'm here but almost always running after pictures : ) |
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Post by figgles on Jan 27, 2016 18:10:02 GMT -5
As are habits... That's what we are talking about here....remember? Not so. I am saying that desires are what eventuate in behaviors continuing or ceasing. I really did try to understand....I read it over several times....It did not compute for me. Is that really so difficult to take on board? I'm not the only one here who has said you are at times difficult to follow. And you are even saying yourself that you admit your point was "rather dense". If I had done that I would have been making nothing but statements. AS you may recall, I asked E a question. I did that for a reason....I was not certain about what he was implying (or not). |
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Post by laughter on Jan 27, 2016 19:02:54 GMT -5
Sorry -- I started to read/reply but the way you've quoted it makes it too much work so I stopped after the first half-sentence. From what I did read you're just perpetuating meaningless argument, my reply to it would pretty much be limited to explaining how what you're writing at this point is just that: arguing for the sake of arguing. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 27, 2016 21:44:43 GMT -5
Sure but in the absence of illusion there's never any wishing or hope for one that didn't grow out of the ground and has only one end to it. I'm just talking 'bout regular carrots. Let's see, that would be one that grows out of the ground and has two ends to it?  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 27, 2016 21:52:42 GMT -5
Right, you saw an appearance that is the same thing no matter what we call it, but what I was pointing out was a fine distinction. In one case, the internal resistance is active, in the other it's not. In both cases, the outcome is the same: a cigarette not smoked. I could also (likely would have been better if I had) said; Regardless of how one gets there, if/when the smoking habit truly ceases to be, fundamental to that is the fact that the desire to self soothe through that behavior lost it's intensity to a greater desire/want/intent...in some cases that desire/intent just might be 'to be free' of all need to be dependent upon conditions to self soothe. Keep in mind context here; we were talking about the presence of a habit, wanting to end that habit and the eventual cessation of that habit. Surrender may indeed have played a part in the cessation of your own smoking habit, but if you try to tell me there was no sense of satisfaction involved at all in the end result of that cessation, or even now as you look back, I'd question that. If that is what happens, (an experience of exerting will), then that too is reflective of the 'top' or presiding desire. If I am experiencing exerting my will to refrain from eating a third slice of cake, it is because there's a strong desire there not to eat cake. The experience of 'will power' arises via desire. The sense of having to 'exert will' just means that the desire to eat cake, is a close second. If the will power seems to fade, it's just that the desire that gave rise to that, waned and the desire to eat or whatever, gained in intensity. Nope. I find Your thinking processes and how you express them, are at times difficult to follow. We've been down this road before. I asked the question to E about control from a position of already clearly seeing myself, that it is always the top desire that wins out, not the application of will power or control that somehow lies contrary to desire.
I wanted to see if he saw it that way too (I am not getting that he does)... my point being; Control or exertion of will may be what it looks like on the surface of things, or what is experienced, but underneath that, is the playing out, unfolding of, the fulfillment of the reigning desire. Yes, the strongest desire wins. I've said that on multiple occasions. I've said that's what happens regardless of the struggle, which begs the question, what is the struggle for? Usually, it's plausible deniability or justification. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 27, 2016 21:56:38 GMT -5
The compulsive aspect, yes. The split mind is about plausible deniability. One must feel compelled to do something one pretends he does not really want to do. I would say, Absent 'compulsion', there is no 'habit.' There's never really a habit in the way that peeps generally think of it. There's just the choice to keep doing something over and over because one wants to. |
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...I'm here but almost always running after pictures : )