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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 10:03:27 GMT -5
So you are not practicing or noticing any ATA-T is going on in you? I do not practice anything except dancing. Really? Would you like to name meditation for some other name other than practise? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 10:08:08 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. I'm sure gopal will straighten you out here (and me if necessary). gopal doesn't advise anyone to meditate (he certainly doesn't meditate). He says nothing can be done (actually, I'll have to go back a few posts and see his language, because he now does say we can do somewhat). And this seeing that nothing can be done is what ends suffering. Nothing else really need be said until he clarifies the earlier post. ("We can bend probable line of the universe as our wish". I don't think he's said that before). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 10:16:20 GMT -5
Oh.....come on now....don't cheat. I thought in your view everything is predetermined. yes It is, I am not saying or I am not cheating anything. Everything is predetermined. Everything is in pre-existing flow which is my eternal mantra. OK, so "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish" merely means that God bends our wish, and it merely seems that "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish". OK, that actually makes sense (from inside your view). ....but of course I look forward to your answers to my other points. |
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Post by zendancer on May 14, 2015 10:19:54 GMT -5
I do not practice anything except dancing. Really? Would you like to name meditation for some other name other than practise? I meditate and ATA-T, and so do you. You just don't realize it. Anytime you look at the world without thinking about it you are ATA-T'ing. I do not practice meditation or ATA, but those activities are a part of life. I probably engage in those activities more than you do because this body/mind looks at the world in silence a great deal. FYI meditation benefits health in the same way that going for a daily walk benefits health. Some people exercise and meditate regularly, and some people don't, but there is no person choosing to do either thing. The Self is the only actor on the stage. In your terminology consciousness is all there is. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 10:33:46 GMT -5
yes It is, I am not saying or I am not cheating anything. Everything is predetermined. Everything is in pre-existing flow which is my eternal mantra. OK, that actually makes sense (from inside your view). ....but of course I look forward to your answers to my other points. Yes yes you correctly understood. We can bend the probable line of the universe, but that is what predetermined to happened, because when I try to manifest something, manifestation towards the desired result was started even before intention to manifest comes to my mind. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 10:36:24 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. Clarity changes the function of mind, realizing happy and unhappy would lead us not to jump out of either of that state, but this too has been predetermined. Predetermination doesn't changes anything from your level. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 10:48:38 GMT -5
If I give your mind answers it will formulate new questions, then it will require more answers so that it can formulate even more new questions. Stop following thought around like a puppy dog and get in touch with the presence right now that you keep overlooking. oh is it ? Thanks. First of all try to understand what is consciousness,mind,thought, So you could come to the common ground which people are discussing here, So that any one can continue discussion with you, you see you would surely blabber something when we ask some question, so It left the people no way to continue argue with you, Even right now, no one can understand what's your model, You and Tzu never have a common ground or you people don't understand what people are speaking here, For an example, take pilgrims who is understanding everything but he denying the idea, ofcourse this is the different case, but you and Tzu don't even understand what people are speaking here. Did you understand why sca says 'I agree with you'? I am pretty sure you haven't understood because you don't even understand what's going on here. Did you notice that why I have opposed zendancer? at which point? I am also sure even if you read you couldn't have understood, because you are not in common ground you and Tzu doesn't even have the common ground to argue here. This is not intend to hurt you but to tell youto get to the common ground quickly, I know the difficulty of that, So I give a way, Enigma is having one beautiful website 'http://www.realizinghappiness.com/', Just read and carefully get the word usage like what he says about mind,awareness,Consciousness, this would benefit you a lot. Is that what aware presence means to you, being one with other peoples definitions and concepts about presence? |
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Post by laughter on May 14, 2015 11:07:10 GMT -5
Is this like saying that the whole universe is aware, but not thinking? And thinking, feeling, self-awareness, are all essentially an awareness of say physiological states? It sounds like we are on an airplane, and go up to the penispit, and find it completely empty. Co.ckpit, for those who don't know what a penispit is.  We could say the universe is aware, and thinking only through the individuation. My point to Tzu being that this unique presence has not been created to be independent so as to provide for authenticity in the expression, as the essence from which it is created has no preferences, no thoughts or feelings that might counter that authenticity. This is what the individual expression is for, and it cannot help but be authentic. This expression is not separate from that which is expressing, and so it's not that the individuals are on autopilot, but rather they move as one by default and therefore have no need of guidance. Perfection is a problematic term, and yet it applies here. As long as we think of ourselves as passengers, the absence of the pilot makes us uneasy, and if we think of ourselves as the pilot, then eventually -- unless we're really fortunate -- we either get white knuckles or fall asleep at the stick. Perfection doesn't mean no turbulence or 100% on-time performance, and there's always some dooood with a peanut allergy in coach that cancels the snack. What it does mean is that you're never on the wrong flight. |
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Post by andrew on May 14, 2015 11:17:50 GMT -5
I understand what gopal is saying from within his understandings. I don't believe in predermination so his choices are quite different to mine, but his answers are consistent with his understandings. Though currently I don't understand why he offers advice at all. I think his primary point is that one cannot do anything. I think he points this out so people can be on the lookout, to see that one cannot do anything. I actually agree with this. It is in more agreement with my view than nonvolition. However, there is a process whereby one can come to do. So in my view gopal's view is not the end. Yeah I understand where you are coming from at the end there. |
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Post by laughter on May 14, 2015 11:31:58 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. I'm sure gopal will straighten you out here (and me if necessary). gopal doesn't advise anyone to meditate (he certainly doesn't meditate). He says nothing can be done (actually, I'll have to go back a few posts and see his language, because he now does say we can do somewhat). And this seeing that nothing can be done is what ends suffering. Nothing else really need be said until he clarifies the earlier post. ("We can bend probable line of the universe as our wish". I don't think he's said that before). When gopal writes this: I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. ... he doesn't mean it in terms of contradicting perdetermination, in fact, it reinforces it. His point is that meditation or what you refer to as "internal practice" will ultimately fail because it's a creation of and initiated by mind and mind will always interrupt it because it's a game mind is playing with itself. The way I'd put what ZD wrote here is that meditation can and does sometimes devolve into or sometimes even begin with the inception of a split-mind state, but if what is beyond mind is engaged, this isn't the case, and it only takes one instance of that engagement to be able to discern the difference. |
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Post by andrew on May 14, 2015 11:35:38 GMT -5
Okay, I understand. Hmmm. Okay, in that case, if you consider any advice you offer to be utterly irrelevant to whether realization happens to someone or not, why do you offer it? What is the motivation and intention behind the advice you give? What drives you to spend time on the forum and talk about this stuff? I appreciate you answering the questions by the way. yes good question, If unfolding universe moves towards for other person then that is useful, but it's not failure if it doesn't happen, and I am doing for my own enjoyment as well. This is something I struggle to comprehend, though I may be misunderstanding what you said there about 'usefulness'. When I come to the forum, I like talking and debating and arguing, I like the social interaction and I like the way it stretches my thinking, but I also come here with a sense of maybe being able to offer something. Specifically, I look at the way individuals might be limiting themselves through their understandings and beliefs. I am only interested in non-duality and Self-Realization to the extent that it challenges the way that individuals often limit themselves. If anything, my interest is more in 'self-actualization' i.e the actualization of human potential. If I felt that my words here served no purpose or value at all, I doubt I would have anything to say. So, based on my understanding of how the organism functions, it is difficult for me to understand why you communicate information that relates to the realization you had, and yet you don't consider your communication to serve any contributory value at all to other people having that realization. To you, it is either destined to happen or it isn't, right? Nothing you say makes a difference either way, does it? |
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Post by andrew on May 14, 2015 11:40:41 GMT -5
The law of attraction is the name given to the term that "like attracts like" and that by focusing on positive or negative thoughts, one can bring about positive or negative results. This is only at superficial level, but in truth we can bend probable line of universe as our wish. Hmmm. I think I must be misunderstanding your understandings slightly, because that doesn't sound like 'predetermination'. I am not disagreeing with what you said here to be clear. |
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Post by andrew on May 14, 2015 11:49:41 GMT -5
OK, so "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish" merely means that God bends our wish, and it merely seems that "we can bend probable line of the universe as our wish".OK, that actually makes sense (from inside your view). ....but of course I look forward to your answers to my other points. Yes yes you correctly understood. We can bend the probable line of the universe, but that is what predetermined to happened, because when I try to manifest something, manifestation towards the desired result was started even before intention to manifest comes to my mind. Ah interesting. Based on what you are saying, it sounds like you are saying that there is no free will in the absolute broadest sense. However, at a practical experiential level, in which time is experienced as unfolding, it IS possible to bend the probably line of the universe, and so at this level, there is free will. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 18:13:16 GMT -5
What you're interested in discussing doesn't interest me. Is that hard to understand? FWIW, I spent twenty years thinking about reality and never found a single answer to any of my dozens of existential questions. After I started shifting attention AWAY from thoughts, answers began to appear. Eventually I found the answers to all of my questions, and the search for understanding came to an end. Considering my past experience with thinking ABOUT "what is" versus attending "what is," can you understand why I point people toward attending and AWAY than thinking? I understand I understand I understand I told you many times, but you are not hearing me, But I said you why I find a fault in your method, it's not a conceptual knowledge of mine, I did all these crappy thing of focusing on the present movement after reading Tolle's book, I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. But I am sure you are going to hear from me even this time. Let me ask you a question, Aren't you still performing this present movement focus to attain some answers? What gopal is saying is that he found that when one "meditates", has "present mind focus", mind will always find a way to break the focus, IOW, mind will start thinking again. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 18:20:43 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. OK, I wasn't clear what you were saying earlier, you were saying (that gopal found it to be true that) the state of meditation (present moment focus) CAN be broken. That's what he found to be true. But you are saying that that's not necessarily true in all cases. (Especially in your case, as what (non)personally occurs is what's most easily verified). laughter helped me clarify that. (thanks) |
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