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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 18:41:05 GMT -5
I'm sure gopal will straighten you out here (and me if necessary). gopal doesn't advise anyone to meditate (he certainly doesn't meditate). He says nothing can be done (actually, I'll have to go back a few posts and see his language, because he now does say we can do somewhat). And this seeing that nothing can be done is what ends suffering. Nothing else really need be said until he clarifies the earlier post. ("We can bend probable line of the universe as our wish". I don't think he's said that before). When gopal writes this: I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. ... he doesn't mean it in terms of contradicting perdetermination, in fact, it reinforces it. His point is that meditation or what you refer to as "internal practice" will ultimately fail because it's a creation of and initiated by mind and mind will always interrupt it because it's a game mind is playing with itself.The way I'd put what ZD wrote here is that meditation can and does sometimes devolve into or sometimes even begin with the inception of a split-mind state, but if what is beyond mind is engaged, this isn't the case, and it only takes one instance of that engagement to be able to discern the difference. OK, I misread what ZD was saying this morning (saying what gopal was saying), that's why I asked for clarification. We're good now, thanks. But I think that this (gopal's experience) is a good example of a realization (or experience in this case) turning into a belief, which Tzu continually points out can happen. This experience became truth for gopal, and still is. I've tried to point out numerous times that "internal practice" is outside the (abstract thinking) mind, or previous to (abstract thinking) mind, so I(we) disagree with gopal on this matter. |
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Post by laughter on May 14, 2015 19:01:53 GMT -5
When gopal writes this: ... he doesn't mean it in terms of contradicting perdetermination, in fact, it reinforces it. His point is that meditation or what you refer to as "internal practice" will ultimately fail because it's a creation of and initiated by mind and mind will always interrupt it because it's a game mind is playing with itself.The way I'd put what ZD wrote here is that meditation can and does sometimes devolve into or sometimes even begin with the inception of a split-mind state, but if what is beyond mind is engaged, this isn't the case, and it only takes one instance of that engagement to be able to discern the difference. OK, I misread what ZD was saying this morning (saying what gopal was saying), that's why I asked for clarification. We're good now, thanks. But I think that this (gopal's experience) is a good example of a realization (or experience in this case) turning into a belief, which Tzu continually points out can happen. This experience became truth for gopal, and still is. I've tried to point out numerous times that "internal practice" is outside the (abstract thinking) mind, or previous to (abstract thinking) mind, so I(we) disagree with gopal on this matter. Lot's of members point out that a realization can form the basis of a belief, and some of them are consistent with respect to that idea and how they present their understandings, some aren't. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 19:01:55 GMT -5
Yes yes you correctly understood. We can bend the probable line of the universe, but that is what predetermined to happened, because when I try to manifest something, manifestation towards the desired result was started even before intention to manifest comes to my mind. Ah interesting. Based on what you are saying, it sounds like you are saying that there is no free will in the absolute broadest sense. However, at a practical experiential level, in which time is experienced as unfolding, it IS possible to bend the probably line of the universe, and so at this level, there is free will. No, gopal clarified for me, no free will. I think he would say, our appearance of free will, the fact we think we have free will, is also predetermined. But I hope I threw a monkey-wrench into his understanding, earlier (in a good way). |
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Post by zendancer on May 14, 2015 19:57:16 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. OK, I wasn't clear what you were saying earlier, you were saying (that gopal found it to be true that) the state of meditation (present moment focus) CAN be broken. That's what he found to be true. But you are saying that that's not necessarily true in all cases. (Especially in your case, as what (non)personally occurs is what's most easily verified). laughter helped me clarify that. (thanks) Correct. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 22:54:00 GMT -5
I understand I understand I understand I told you many times, but you are not hearing me, But I said you why I find a fault in your method, it's not a conceptual knowledge of mine, I did all these crappy thing of focusing on the present movement after reading Tolle's book, I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. But I am sure you are going to hear from me even this time. Let me ask you a question, Aren't you still performing this present movement focus to attain some answers? What gopal is saying is that he found that when one "meditates", has "present mind focus", mind will always find a way to break the focus, IOW, mind will start thinking again. No no, I am not talking about meditation as the present movement focus, ofcourse that too present movement focus, but I was not talking about that attending the actual, What I said by the word 'present movement focus' is attending the actual, focusing on the outer world by eliminating thoughts which pop up in our mind. I started this practise after reading Tolle's book of power of now, You can't carry this present movement focus for a long time, sooner mind would suggest you to drag back, and I am pretty sure it ultimately succeed. It's exactly know how to break that state and bring back to the normal thinking mode. The time you start to attend the actual decides the time which you ends the focus as well. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 22:56:51 GMT -5
Yes yes you correctly understood. We can bend the probable line of the universe, but that is what predetermined to happened, because when I try to manifest something, manifestation towards the desired result was started even before intention to manifest comes to my mind. Ah interesting. Based on what you are saying, it sounds like you are saying that there is no free will in the absolute broadest sense. However, at a practical experiential level, in which time is experienced as unfolding, it IS possible to bend the probably line of the universe, and so at this level, there is free will. In all the sense you do not have freewill, freewill never become true for you, but you could act or decide as if you have freewill. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 22:58:22 GMT -5
This is only at superficial level, but in truth we can bend probable line of universe as our wish. Hmmm. I think I must be misunderstanding your understandings slightly, because that doesn't sound like 'predetermination'. I am not disagreeing with what you said here to be clear. Predestination includes the bending the probable line too. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 23:00:53 GMT -5
I'm sure gopal will straighten you out here (and me if necessary). gopal doesn't advise anyone to meditate (he certainly doesn't meditate). He says nothing can be done (actually, I'll have to go back a few posts and see his language, because he now does say we can do somewhat). And this seeing that nothing can be done is what ends suffering. Nothing else really need be said until he clarifies the earlier post. ("We can bend probable line of the universe as our wish". I don't think he's said that before). When gopal writes this: I thought all my suffering would go away if I focus my attention in the present movement but what I noticed was, mind exactly knows to break this state of present movement focus, it would surely so strongly suggest so that we would give up the focus. The way I'd put what ZD wrote here is that meditation can and does sometimes devolve into or sometimes even begin with the inception of a split-mind state, but if what is beyond mind is engaged, this isn't the case, and it only takes one instance of that engagement to be able to discern the difference. Exactly said, you explained my logic more clearer than me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 23:03:50 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. I am not talking about meditation, I am talking about ATA-T. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 14, 2015 23:35:29 GMT -5
Gopal says that if one decides to meditate that state CAN be broken. He is correct, but he doesn't seem to understand that the state MAY NOT get broken. If everything is a movement in consciousness (his view), and everything is predetermined, then it is impossible to say with certainty what will happen next. The one who meditates may continue to meditate or not, and may have realizations or not, and may have CC experiences or not, and may discover what's going on or not. I am not talking about meditation, I am talking about ATA-T. The old definition of meditation (especially in the western world) is to ponder-think on a certain subject (usually spiritual of some sort). But we generally these days equate meditation (for example mindfulness meditation), present moment awareness and ATA-T and still mind. That's the sense I was using the word. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 0:00:46 GMT -5
I am not talking about meditation, I am talking about ATA-T. The old definition of meditation (especially in the western world) is to ponder-think on a certain subject (usually spiritual of some sort). But we generally these days equate meditation (for example mindfulness meditation), present moment awareness and ATA-T and still mind. That's the sense I was using the word. When I say meditation, it's about sitting in a particular place and closing the eyes and concentrating the present movement, but when I say attending the actual, it's nothing living a normal life but concentrating on what's happening in the present movement(outer world). |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 1:34:55 GMT -5
The old definition of meditation (especially in the western world) is to ponder-think on a certain subject (usually spiritual of some sort). But we generally these days equate meditation (for example mindfulness meditation), present moment awareness and ATA-T and still mind. That's the sense I was using the word. When I say meditation, it's about sitting in a particular place and closing the eyes and concentrating the present movement, but when I say attending the actual, it's nothing living a normal life but concentrating on what's happening in the present movement(outer world). Meditation to me means transcending thought. What do you achieve by concentrating on external phenomena. (Outer world) |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 3:27:39 GMT -5
When I say meditation, it's about sitting in a particular place and closing the eyes and concentrating the present movement, but when I say attending the actual, it's nothing living a normal life but concentrating on what's happening in the present movement(outer world). Meditation to me means transcending thought. What do you achieve by concentrating on external phenomena. (Outer world) Have you read the book named 'power of now' by Tolle? he says that we could escape the suffering by concentrating on the present movement, But what I realized was, that's also another mind fantasy because it's exactly know where to end. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 3:29:44 GMT -5
I am not talking about meditation, I am talking about ATA-T. The old definition of meditation (especially in the western world) is to ponder-think on a certain subject (usually spiritual of some sort). But we generally these days equate meditation (for example mindfulness meditation), present moment awareness and ATA-T and still mind. That's the sense I was using the word. I meant to say I was not sitting,closing eyes and then concentrating on the empty screen of eye-lid. I said I was attending the actual, have you ever read the book named 'Power of now' by Tolle? |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 3:33:16 GMT -5
Meditation to me means transcending thought. What do you achieve by concentrating on external phenomena. (Outer world) Have you read the book named 'power of now' by Tolle? he says that we could escape the suffering by concentrating on the present movement, But what I realized was, that's also another mind fantasy because it's exactly know where to end. So instead you are concentrating on the mind fantasy of outer world. Yes I have read Tolle's book. |
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