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Post by Peter on Oct 23, 2009 4:01:35 GMT -5
As for the emergency reaction, I agree. I work with the developmentally disabled, and I have been in situations where I automatically did what needed to be done. We train ourselves on the proper way to do things, or on the "right way", and when the crucial moment comes we do the "right" thing without even thinking about it. That applies to emergency situations, whether they be physical or spiritual. Hi Astenny, I'd be very interested to hear any advice you have on training ourselves to handle spiritual emergency situations. It's an emotive subject for me since I went through one myself and ended up sectioned for a week. Obviously I have mixed feelings about that - lingering anger about being forcibly held down, stripped and injected. But on the other hand, I did need to get some rest and it may be that those birds that had flown my mind would not have come home to roost without assistance. Zendancer mentioned that he couldn't remember his own name for a time - lucky he didn't run into a policeman while he was in that state! And David Icke went on national telly in the UK in 1991 in a clearly non-grounded state after a spiritual experience. Just to give a couple of examples. Let me use a quote Zendancer gave recently: Instantaneously, like surging waves, a tremendous delight welled up in me, a veritable hurricane of delight, as I laughed loudly and wildly: 'Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! There's no reasoning here, no reasoning at all! Ha, ha, ha!' The empty sky split in two, then opened its enormous mouth and began to laugh uproariously: "Ha, ha, ha!' Later, one of the members of my family told me that my laughter had sounded inhuman.
I was now lying on my back. Suddenly I sat up and struck the bed with all my might and beat the floor with my feet, as if trying to smash it, all the while laughing riotously. My wife and youngest son, sleeping near me, were now awake and frightened. Covering my mouth with her hand, my wife exclaimed: 'What's the matter with you? What's the matter with you?' But I wasn't aware of this until told about it afterwards. My son told me later that he thought I had gone mad. I can say with all confidence that if this chap's family had expressed their concern by phoning NHS24, he'd have found himself in the back of an ambulance dosed up on Lorazepam before you could say 'nutter'. As I see it we're talking about a brush with the unknown, so I'm sure how much we can do to prepare for that. A couple of things that really helped me were: 1. Having that faith that God will never ask us to experience more than we're capable of handling. 2. "Just Breathe" I think information about Spiritual Emergency is also important to get 'out there', as it is not well understood by the general public or (in my experience) the majority of health care workers. I devoted a page to it on my own website, where I linked to this article that I found really helpful: Am I Enlightened or Crazy? Making Sense of Spiritual Emergencies. |
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 23, 2009 10:09:35 GMT -5
This is exactly why people go on spiritual retreats or become hermits for a while. Sometimes the only difference between being insane and waking up is that, with waking up, there is some subtle thread of awareness of what reality SHOULD be, even if the current experience has nothing to do with what reality "should be."
I hauled myself in an apartment by myself for several months at one point because that was what was needed during one of the big pushes towards the end. Lucky. I had enough sense during those times not to talk to anyone else unless I knew that I was cogent enough to do so. In retrospect, talking to someone occasionally, helped keep me grounded, but theirs great value to losing your mind, and sometimes it happens very quickly....
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Post by zendancer on Oct 23, 2009 10:19:22 GMT -5
Peter: Several thoughts came to mind after reading your post this morning. Here they are in no particular order:
1. Lack of sleep, alone, can trigger psychotic episodes that may or may not have anything to do with spirituality. In "The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" Phaedrus goes without sleep for a significant amount of time and goes mental. Women with postpartum depression often have trouble sleeping and that exacerbates the occurence of depressive thoughts. An Israeli study concerning sleep deprivation showed that psychosis can be triggered very easily in most people.
2. Mania is a state that often involves out-of-control thinking. Out-of-control thinking, where the mind feels like it is speeded up more than usual, often precedes nervous breakdowns as well as severe depressive episodes. People suffering from manic depression often lose touch with reality.
3. Spiritual retreats often put people into high-pressure situations that may lead to unusual mental states and experiences. At my first Zen retreat I was under enormous physical as well as psychological strain. Getting up at 4:30 in the morning to do 108 full prostration bows followed by ten hours of meditation left me exhausted after only one day. During the second day the exhaustion became greater, and I became somewhat depressed. Then, I got a surge of energy in the afternoon, and at 9:30 that night I had a big breakthrough. The breakthrough left me so exhilarated that I had no interest in sleeping. Instead, I left the retreat facility and wandered through the streets trying to process what I had realized. My thoughts speeded up much more than usual, and I had all kinds of crazy ideas. I concluded that Zen was nothing more than a huge game devised by Zen Masters and I had penetrated their secret. This was totally in error, but I didn't realize it until a day later. I was in a state of extreme euphoria triggered by a legitimate realization followed by a bunch of nutty thoughts. However, I did not lose touch with consensual reality, and if I had encountered a mental health professional, I would have appeared and acted normal.
4. During the experience in which I forgot my name, I was able to function appropriately and no one around me noticed anything unusual. The experience lasted about ten or twenty minutes and during that time I was able to give directions to a construction crew and carry on normal conversations with people.
5. The example of the man who woke up in the middle of the night and started laughing after his deep realization probably experienced the same sort of thing I did. He came back to normal within thirty minutes, and although he remained euphoric for quite a while thereafter, he carried on normal activities the following day. He visited his Zen Master to explain what had happened to him and to learn how to proceed after having such an experience.
6. When the body/mind is put under pressure, from any source, it will respond in unpredictable ways. Another Israeli study about people in rapid weight-loss programs found that a certain percentage of people who lost large amounts of weight became neurotic and a few experienced psychosis. People whose potassium levels drop too low will experience psychosis. In the 1930's people were put into mental institutions for psychoses that later turned out to be caused by a lack of vitamin B-3 (niacin.) Many philosophers have suffered psychosis from thinking too much (Nietzche, etc). Thinking consumes enormous energy, and if too much thinking is coupled with a lack of sleep, anything can happen. Chess masters frequently lose ten pounds of body weight during high-level competitions. Our brains consume vast amounts of energy.
This is pure speculation, but you may have had a legitimate spiritual insight experience that triggered manic thinking. This, coupled with a lack of sleep or insufficient nutrition, could have triggered the experiences you described. It certainly seems as if you lost touch with consensual reality in a big way, and if that is true, then Haldol (or whatever medications are currently used) may have been an appropriate way to put you back in touch with reality. I am not a psychiatrist or a doctor, but I've read enough books about orthomolecular psychiatry and related topics to realize that we are nothing more than a bag of bubbling chemicals. My attitude is fairly prosaic. If someone is stressed out, give them some valium or lexapro, and counsel them about their lifestyle. If they're depressed, give them some elavil or some other mood elevator. If they lose touch with reality, give them whatever chemical works best. It's no big deal, and it is similar to taking an aspirin when you have a headache.
Rather than interpret your experience in spiritual terms, consider dropping any interpretation at all. The facts are simple: somthing happened, and then something else happened, and then something else happened. The bottom line is that whatever happened happened to no one. It is all empty, so consider whatever story appears as just a story. If Zen Master Seung Sahn were still alive, he would say, "Put it all down; don't know." Whatever you can see and hear right now is all there is (more about this later).
One last story. About thirty years ago I decided to get in shape for a mountain-climbing expedition. I quit eating solid food (thinking that this would be a fast way to turn my body into solid muscle LOL--very stupid in retrospect) and began exercising like crazy. Every afternoon I would strap on a heavy pack and run through the countryside for several miles. A week later I met the love of my life and we began staying up until the wee hours of the morning. I had a stressful job supervising thirty people on a construction project and I was driving forty miles through heavy traffic both ways to work. After two and a half weeks, I began to experience severe exhaustion, and shortly thereafter I started having panic attacks. I rushed to my doctor and was given valium, but he never asked about my lifestyle, which was insane. After the valium ran out, I realized that I was on the verge of becoming non-functional. I rushed to a bookstore and bought twenty books about mental illness. After several hours of reading, I realized why I was in bad shape--no food, no sleep, heavy stress, etc. I had wrecked my health, and it took more than two years of mega-vitamins, regular sleep, long walks, vacations, and reduced stress to get back to "normal." Believe me, that experience gave me some first-hand knowledge with how the body and mind are connected. I can definitely relate to your post. Take care and let us know how you're doing in the days ahead. With love.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 23, 2009 13:26:28 GMT -5
Peter: Here is another true story that my wife reminded me about. Several years ago we had a friend on the spiritual path who grew increasingly depressed. She cried a great deal and worried incessantly about several issues as well as many interpersonal relationships. Some of her friends suggested that she visit a physician for an evaluation. She refused because she thought that she was going through a "dark night of the soul" and that drugs might prevent her from making the passage to a higher state of consciousness. Later, a friend told her how much she had been helped by the anti-depressant Lexapro. On a particularly dark day, she went to see a doc, got a prescription, and within three days she was like a different person. No more dark thoughts, no more worries, no more crying, etc. In fact, she became decidedly upbeat. The drug did not interfere with her spiritual journey at all; it simply changed the serotonin levels in her brain. She told us afterwards that her clarity had been vastly improved and that she was able to see through some of the crazy thoughts that had previously been troubling her. She eventually quit taking the drug and considered the entire two-year episode as an interesting experience unrelated to spirituality. Today she appears happy, still meditates regularly, and seems to live a fairly balanced life. Sometimes too much thinking can generate a downward spiral into very unhappy states of mind. You, alone, (assuming that you're reasonably in touch with reality) will have to decide for yourself whether particular states of mind are primarily spiritual in nature or something resulting from unusual ideation. Zen Masters often tell their students to watch their thoughts without getting attached to them. This creates some mental space and may provide a more holistic perspective.
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Post by alpha on Oct 23, 2009 15:03:32 GMT -5
J Kristnamurti often asked " Where is your anchor" "if your anchor is not in "THAT" then you will go to pieces",Im not quite sure what "THAT" means, perhaps you will know...
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fear
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Post by fear on Oct 25, 2009 10:18:42 GMT -5
I think you already found your answer Peter, it's already in your post.
Just breathe.
This is the eye of the storm, the centre of one's being, where all is calm. When everything else is in chaos, breathing just happens. No matter what's going on, breathing just happens and I find that to be the most valuable anchor (better than being anchored to "that", whatever "that" is). I can just imagine being dragged off to an institution screaming "I am that, I am that".
Focusing on just breathing (tough thing to do), has been my tried, tested and true, way to silence thoughts, mental garbage and in one very bad moment possible mania as zendancer describes it, uncontrollable thoughts. Going inside to the point of stillness where there is only breath and just observing the mind going crazy allows whatever it is to burn itself out. Exhaust it's negative energy and all that's left is peace, just breath.
Your second point that God won't let you experience more than you can handle is great insight. There is evidence of this is many writings I've come upon, from Ramana Maharshi saying, I can give it but can you take it or Gangaji saying, we have to sit and rest so that when the tidal wave comes we can stand and face it.
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Post by souley on Oct 25, 2009 10:43:27 GMT -5
Well this applies very much to my experiences, I read the link and it was great. You can see some traces of my experiences in the "Spiritual Experiences II" thread.
When I just fell apart in february, I basically realised in a very gnossis way that the world really IS totally upside down to what I had previously thought. The enlightenment thing actually is real. This was so totally very different from all the ideas I had about it at first. I was then living in a state of fear and mania for about 4-5 weeks. It went up and down during the day, and I was constantly afraid of it returning. I was really afraid that I had gone insane - how could I see the world like this, and no one else does - it was all beyond anything I could handle. The result of this was that my thoughts ran completely wild because of the fear.
The only thing I could do was to just give up. All thoughts or explanations just perpetuated the situation. I tried all kinds of methods to "think straight". But in the end I was just "fuck everything", and things started to cool down.
But after these initial weeks I have been living another life then before, I am extremely susceptible to all kinds of fear and instability. It is basically the same thing as the first weeks but less and less intense.
Recently (many months later), I had kind of decided that this period was over, and that some stability had been found. But then I started to fall apart again. But this is all a part of the journey for me. It was extremely important for me to wake up now and fast, and it seems life responded in the most direct way. The crash between mind and reality was really enormous.
During this time I've been living my life normally. I have been working, spending time with my to-be-wife, family and friends. The first few weeks it was really hard, occasionally I would zone out, being locked inside my head by the crazy thoughts. Work was thankfully pretty easy at this time - I could leave early when it was really terrible. Now I'm kind of leading a intense project but it is no problem since it is not as bad anymore.
At times, especially in the beginning, I toyed with ideas of some kind of retreat or refuge. I could not stand being in society trying to act normal when I was in total chaos inside. But life never provided the chance - rather it made sure that I couldn't. Instead I became more and more convinced that it was very good for me to just carry on as usual, and now in retrospect I think it helped me a lot. Both by speeding up the process, and keeping me in touch with reality.
Right there is not much left of the old souley (ofcourse everything is still here), but I could hardly claim this new guy insane - he acts very much more humbly and humane, has much less ideas about how things should be, and enjoys the little things. Big love for people in general - coupled with moments of egoic fear. What will happen? I don't know, but it seems many have had similar experiences of a dark night of the soul. Douglas Harding for example who I'm particularly fond of seems to have had very very similar experiences.
Just these last days I have been feeling so much less self-centered that my entire journey until now feels like a total ego-trip, trying to achieve something for the me, which is hilariously self-defeating and impossible. Something like true caring for others is starting to shine through. Thank god!
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Post by alpha on Oct 25, 2009 12:17:56 GMT -5
I think you already found your answer Peter, it's already in your post. Just breathe. This is the eye of the storm, the centre of one's being, where all is calm. When everything else is in chaos, breathing just happens. No matter what's going on, breathing just happens and I find that to be the most valuable anchor (better than being anchored to "that", whatever "that" is). I can just imagine being dragged off to an institution screaming "I am that, I am that". Focusing on just breathing (tough thing to do), has been my tried, tested and true, way to silence thoughts, mental garbage and in one very bad moment possible mania as zendancer describes it, uncontrollable thoughts. Going inside to the point of stillness where there is only breath and just observing the mind going crazy allows whatever it is to burn itself out. Exhaust it's negative energy and all that's left is peace, just breath. Your second point that God won't let you experience more than you can handle is great insight. There is evidence of this is many writings I've come upon, from Ramana Maharshi saying, I can give it but can you take it or Gangaji saying, we have to sit and rest so that when the tidal wave comes we can stand and face it. "Focusing on breathing" then is the simple but very important answer, Perhaps these feelings of "going crazy" are the result of "Enlightenment" coming too early (before the apple is ripe), But for everyone on the "Path" its good to know what to do,if or when "It" happens, I agree that we are all protected by God, as this link refers to... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197394/The-Third-Man-Factor-How-dire-peril-felt-sudden-presence-inspiring-survive.html |
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 26, 2009 10:23:24 GMT -5
Hey Souley, Well, I definitely relate to what you're saying. The recognition that Enlightenment cannot be had personally after trying to attain it personally seems like one of the big jokes. But trying to attain it as an individual is an important part of an important process, even if attaining it only means recognizing on the most fundamental level that there never was a separate individual attain it.  It can be very tempting to go off onto spiritual retreats and stuff, but, a large amount of the time, having that focus in life can be incredibly integrating, and it keeps things moving forward. Chugging along nicely. Thanks for sharing. Well this applies very much to my experiences, I read the link and it was great. You can see some traces of my experiences in the "Spiritual Experiences II" thread. When I just fell apart in february, I basically realised in a very gnossis way that the world really IS totally upside down to what I had previously thought. The enlightenment thing actually is real. This was so totally very different from all the ideas I had about it at first. I was then living in a state of fear and mania for about 4-5 weeks. It went up and down during the day, and I was constantly afraid of it returning. I was really afraid that I had gone insane - how could I see the world like this, and no one else does - it was all beyond anything I could handle. The result of this was that my thoughts ran completely wild because of the fear. The only thing I could do was to just give up. All thoughts or explanations just perpetuated the situation. I tried all kinds of methods to "think straight". But in the end I was just "f**k everything", and things started to cool down. But after these initial weeks I have been living another life then before, I am extremely susceptible to all kinds of fear and instability. It is basically the same thing as the first weeks but less and less intense. Recently (many months later), I had kind of decided that this period was over, and that some stability had been found. But then I started to fall apart again. But this is all a part of the journey for me. It was extremely important for me to wake up now and fast, and it seems life responded in the most direct way. The crash between mind and reality was really enormous. During this time I've been living my life normally. I have been working, spending time with my to-be-wife, family and friends. The first few weeks it was really hard, occasionally I would zone out, being locked inside my head by the crazy thoughts. Work was thankfully pretty easy at this time - I could leave early when it was really terrible. Now I'm kind of leading a intense project but it is no problem since it is not as bad anymore. At times, especially in the beginning, I toyed with ideas of some kind of retreat or refuge. I could not stand being in society trying to act normal when I was in total chaos inside. But life never provided the chance - rather it made sure that I couldn't. Instead I became more and more convinced that it was very good for me to just carry on as usual, and now in retrospect I think it helped me a lot. Both by speeding up the process, and keeping me in touch with reality. Right there is not much left of the old souley (ofcourse everything is still here), but I could hardly claim this new guy insane - he acts very much more humbly and humane, has much less ideas about how things should be, and enjoys the little things. Big love for people in general - coupled with moments of egoic fear. What will happen? I don't know, but it seems many have had similar experiences of a dark night of the soul. Douglas Harding for example who I'm particularly fond of seems to have had very very similar experiences. Just these last days I have been feeling so much less self-centered that my entire journey until now feels like a total ego-trip, trying to achieve something for the me, which is hilariously self-defeating and impossible. Something like true caring for others is starting to shine through. Thank god! |
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Post by divinity on Oct 27, 2009 11:48:58 GMT -5
Most people who come to me with what they think are life situational problems are actually spiritual emergencies they but don't realize it. They are suffering from the illusion of disconnection from spirit... which is impossible because we ARE spirit and cannot disconnect. Refocusing is what I help them to do. I work on many individuals who are not consciously on a spiritual path or journey, but that is the only thing we are all doing here whether we realize it or not, and whatever modality we choose or whatever one was chosen for us as children.
I also have to refocus my Alzheimer's patients constantly, who appear to dissolve and reappear again and again from one dimension to another.
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Post by astenny on Oct 30, 2009 11:13:46 GMT -5
I have never forgotten my name, or came very close to that line between sane and not sane. (Don't listen to those people snickering as I type that, LOL. I never said I claim to be completely sane, and I don't think anyone can.) I have had experiences which transcend "normality." From talking to others I have learned that those moments of transcendence are different for all of us, but that any situation can be handled with "proper" training. I have noticed that the people who most need to know how to help those having a spiritual emergency (especially if we appear to be very not sane at the time) need to know more than they do about the subject.
I do very much agree that God does not give us more than we can handle, but in doing so He expands what we thought we could handle. Considering my "mystical" experiences, as well as my more mundane experiences(such as my chronic migraines), my abilities are greater than I knew them to be.
I most certainly agree with JUST BREATHE. The first, and maybe most important, step is to stop for at least a moment and just breathe. We have to remember we have been given a wonderful experience, which may currently be more than we can handle. In time we will learn to deal with it, and the most we can do now is to handle it one step at a time.
Something I think everyone should do is meditate or pray every day. Besides the spiritual boost it provides, it also helps us in our times of need. I have found that because I often connect with Divinity, in those times of need it is much easier to feel His presence. It is a calming effect, and makes any emergency much easier. It also provides me a place of peace within my soul that I can access at any time of my choosing.
Another thing we need to do is ignore the Ego. It may have been a special experience to me, but that does not make me better than anyone else. I am not God, and we are all His Children and His messengers. We are all on a journey, and the most I can do is to help someone else along their journey. More importantly, each journey is different.
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Post by divinity on Oct 31, 2009 17:42:30 GMT -5
Astenny... are you positive that you are not God?
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Post by Peter on Nov 11, 2009 11:11:08 GMT -5
Well I've had a couple of weeks to get some space on this one, which is good because my initial reaction to Zendancer's reply was quite defensive. I'd asked the Universe to help me develop some humility, and (as usual) I've been given the requested lessons in spades. This thread is part of it, and I also got into a very intense situation with my wife last weekend which led to me admitting vulnerability. There, I even have difficulty typing the word. Possibly the celibacy thing (was on day 19 at the time) was also relevant. My initial response to this: Take care and let us know how you're doing in the days ahead. Was to say: "Hey, I'm not a victim. I don't need sympathy. I would hope that my two years of (reasonably) coherent regular postings to this board (and it's predecessor!) would indicate that I'm doing just fine, thank you." So yeah. Defensive. On the subject of medication I will say that despite that fact that the majority of people who have one psychotic episode never go on to have another one, the medical establishment continue to push (and push quite hard) drugs that have serious side effects, where (statistically speaking) they're not needed. Take the one that they wanted me to take on an ongoing basis for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine#Adverse_effectsCaroline Myss was talking about the medical profession's over dependence on medication in this YouTube video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnSHNyn7qQI also really enjoyed her Keynote address from the same conference. She's a very dry and humorous speaker, like the Judge Judy of Personal Development: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmclQJ_lBA&NR=1There is a real social stigma with mental illness that doesn't seem to exist with other afflictions. Zendancer offers excellent advice of "dropping any interpretation at all" (which I take on board), but fails to follow it himself in being so quick to reassure the world that at no time did he "lose touch with consensual reality", always "acted normal" and "no one around me noticed anything unusual". Astenney also made it his first order of business to declare that he's never come "close to that line between sane and not sane". Zendancer> Your reference to Orthomolecular psychiatry lead to some very interesting reading for me. Especially because Hoffer seems to have been at odds with The American Psychiatric Association: So Hoffer's approach of treating people with vitamins rather than patent protected drugs wasn't popular with mainstream psychiatry? That makes sense. |
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 11, 2009 11:34:33 GMT -5
Hey Peter, For what it's worth, I think everyone, without exception, genuinely needs sympathy. That isn't the same as pity, but rather someone to take their bad feelings seriously. It may be most useful if we are fully sympathetic to ourselves, but that doesn't mean that sympathy isn't a genuine need for all of us.... Well I've had a couple of weeks to get some space on this one, which is good because my initial reaction to Zendancer's reply was quite defensive. I'd asked the Universe to help me develop some humility, and (as usual) I've been given the requested lessons in spades. This thread is part of it, and I also got into a very intense situation with my wife last weekend which led to me admitting vulnerability. There, I even have difficulty typing the word. Possibly the celibacy thing (was on day 19 at the time) was also relevant. My initial response to this: Take care and let us know how you're doing in the days ahead. Was to say: "Hey, I'm not a victim. I don't need sympathy. I would hope that my two years of (reasonably) coherent regular postings to this board (and it's predecessor!) would indicate that I'm doing just fine, thank you." So yeah. Defensive. On the subject of medication I will say that despite that fact that the majority of people who have one psychotic episode never go on to have another one, the medical establishment continue to push (and push quite hard) drugs that have serious side effects, where (statistically speaking) they're not needed. Take the one that they wanted me to take on an ongoing basis for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine#Adverse_effectsCaroline Myss was talking about the medical profession's over dependence on medication in this YouTube video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnSHNyn7qQI also really enjoyed her Keynote address from the same conference. She's a very dry and humorous speaker, like the Judge Judy of Personal Development: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmclQJ_lBA&NR=1There is a real social stigma with mental illness that doesn't seem to exist with other afflictions. Zendancer offers excellent advice of "dropping any interpretation at all" (which I take on board), but fails to follow it himself in being so quick to reassure the world that at no time did he "lose touch with consensual reality", always "acted normal" and "no one around me noticed anything unusual". Astenney also made it his first order of business to declare that he's never come "close to that line between sane and not sane". Zendancer> Your reference to Orthomolecular psychiatrylead to some very interesting reading for me. Especially because Hoffer seems to have been at odds with The American Psychiatric Association: So Hoffer's approach of treating people with vitamins rather than patent protected drugs wasn't popular with mainstream psychiatry? That makes sense. |
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Post by souley on Nov 11, 2009 12:05:57 GMT -5
Peter, good post! My experiences have really made me more humble, and it is more or less the same as freedom I would say. I have also developed some kind of sense that tells me if I'm in a defensive mode, where I need some space.. very practical  Admitting to some kind of mental problems is the last thing people would do - it is in total opposition to everything they are. It is subconsciously synonymous with death.. but it is just ego-death, of course! |
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