Dealing with a Spiritual Emergency

[zendancer]

Divinity: What in the world are you talking about? "What Is" is NOT subjective. What you imagine is subjective. Are you interested in Reality or do you prefer to live in a dreamstate? If you are interested in Reality, then you better forget this "think happy thoughts" nonsense, and turn your attention to direct sensory experience. The kingdom of God has nothing to do with any kind of thoughts (happy or otherwise).

The entire point of Zen koans is to illustrate the non-relativity of "what is." I hold up my fist and ask ten people, "What is this?" If they are imagining/thinking, I will get ten different answers ("It's a fist." "It's a human hand." "It's a signal." "It's flesh and bone." "It's an object." "It's matter composed of various elements." "It's a symbol of victory." "It's an aggressive gesture." etc. etc) If they perceive "what is" directly through their senses, I will get only one answer--the same answer from everyone. What is that one answer? Do you want to wake up and perceive the living truth, or do you want to stay sound asleep, living your life in a dream full of happy thoughts? Vacant has already responded correctly to the other issue in your last post.

[Peter]

Hi Divinity - "What Is" - as I understand it - has a special meaning in the context of spiritual work to indicate a Higher or Objective Reality (you can't use too many capital letters here). Also described as "That Which Is".

It's a valid question - whether or not we can create our own reality. It's the "blue pill" decision Cypher makes in The Matrix. I found a relevant essay about it here. Like this quote especially:

So the metaphor of the journey to truth that Neo takes is complete. The journey starts with a question, there is a search for the answer and the answer may be reached. This shows us that the journey does not start with Neo choosing between the pills, or with ourselves deciding whether to question. The act of asking the question is itself the starting point as the aim of asking the question is to seek truth and knowledge.

I've a friend who is posting "The Secret" / Manifesting / Attraction / Universal Ordering type things on Facebook fairly constantly. I haven't challenged her on it yet... it's her choice to believe whatever she wants to.

I think Divinity makes a very valid point to say that TV manipulates the population into a state of fear. Although, fear may be a very valid reaction to facing up to the Reality of what is happening in the world, rather than just being part of the "control" system.

I don't have a strong philosophical argument on this one, just a feeling that "You Create Your Own Reality" (and similar philosphies) amount to sticking one's head in the sand about what's going on in the world. I'll finish with the poem First They Came

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

EDIT: Whoops, ZenDancer got his post in while I was composing this one.

[Peter]

Have been considering what I'm doing with my life in terms of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, since part of what I've been thinking about is a "back to the soil" living in a forest and building my own house - which in reality would probably be a step down the pyramid, rather than up!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

I noted that one of the elements of Self-actualization is acceptance of facts. Now we just need to work out what the Real facts are...

[Portto]

Nov 16, 2009 7:54:40 GMT -5 zendancer said:

What Is" is NOT subjective. What you imagine is subjective.

I "love" your approach to non-duality, Zendancer! I'm finally starting to understand what those koans are about.

"What is" is the most reproducible thing next to presence and awareness. And ultimately it's the same thing. This is why science works.

The "what is" that we talk/think about can be subjective.
But the real "what is" is valid for "all of us".

[zendancer]

Porto: That's right. Before I acquired direct experience I used to think, "All of us experience totally subjective realities, but we all see the moon, so there must be something objective underlying all of our separate relativities." What I didn't understand at that time is that our personal worlds were all imaginary! The real world was standing there in front of me, but I couldn't see it. This is why the New Age idea of "create your own reality" is a continuation of the usual imaginary nonsense. Any reality that we "create" is not Reality; it is a meta-reality--a product of imagination that perpetuates the myth of selfhood ("I" create my own reality). Yes, having positive thoughts is better than having negative thoughts, but who is the one who is having thoughts? That is the core issue. Cheers.

[Portto]

Nov 16, 2009 10:41:28 GMT -5 zendancer said:

What I didn't understand at that time is that our personal worlds were all imaginary!
....
... but who is the one who is having thoughts? That is the core issue.

Yes, this is the core - ultimate - issue. But it's not perceived as such at all until something "cracks" in the mind.

This question (who is having thoughts) is usually dismissed very quickly as utterly ridiculous.

[zendancer]

Reading the above post several hours later, one more point comes to mind. If we ask, "What is the idea behind the idea of "creating one's own reality?" it boils down to this: "I want to create a better reality than the one I have now." The same sort of idea is behind "abundance theology." The illusion is that there is a "me" who can improve reality in a way that will be more favorable to "me." The whole thing is a charade, a mirage, and a phantasm because no such "me" exists.

There is no time
No space
No things
No causation
No purpose
No meaning
No improvement
No movement
No separation
No union
No attainment
No path
No one.

Words and thoughts fade, and only emptiness remains..... unknown, mysterious, and profound, "The silence inside the silence." (Rumi)

[lightmystic]

Good analogy.

Nov 13, 2009 21:29:45 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Porto: Let's say that someone hands us photos taken at a dance that we attended. The photos show people standing motionless on the dancefloor in strange positions. The direct experience of dancing to the music is to the photos as the reality of what is is to our ideas about what is. A video of the dance would be closer to the truth than the photos, but I would prefer the experience of dancing to any simulation of the dancing. The photos and the video are both "real," but they are a poor substitute for the direct experience of dancing. I would rather dance than think about dancing. However, I'm a Zen Dancer, so I may be prejudiced in this regard. LOL.

[lightmystic]

Well, I actually find that the news and such are more thoughts ABOUT what is, than what is. Of course thoughts about it are part of it, but it's thinking they are the whole thing that cases problems. The reality is that they are based in their core on fundamentally false assumptions. The idea of a tree, for example, does not take into account so many actualities of the tree, even on the grossest surface levels (let alone the more subtle values of the tree). And if EVERY concept falls into that category, and it does, then the whole thing is simply built on a house of cards. You can give opinions, ideas, etc. ABOUT all of those things, but it's really just a response to our concepts of it, and not the thing itself. At best it's a fun story that very roughly approximates some aspect of the experience. At worst, it's a totally misunderstanding that precludes and actual understanding or experience of the thing at all...

Choosing to "be happy", or going into those concepts are no more useful than claiming unhappiness is more useful. The trying to go for pleasure and avoid pain is the classic, age old suffering trap. Thus, if we can probe into who we are, through all our worry, fear, pain, and assumptions, then we can sink into the truth, a gut-level instinctual knowing. And then safety can happen for the first time ever. In any experience. It just takes that recognition and some subsequent gentle exploration into one's actual experience....

Nov 14, 2009 10:36:45 GMT -5 divinity said:

wew... take a hike!

Porto... "what is" is subjective and therefor not really real or important. "What is" is what the news people report on which gets many people on Earth in a lather of fear and dread. Better to imagine what makes you feel good, safe, happy, joyous... and that will be your reality. You will attract other joy to yourself by doing this. Look at all the abundance and goodness and health in the world instead of the dreck which is put on TV to get us to fear and be manipulated!
Peace,
Divinity

[lightmystic]

I think that asking whether we create our own reality is like asking whether the heart chooses to beat, or the body makes it beat. It doesn't make any sense. It's one integrated body that does what it does. And it wants to do what it does. So naturally so that the idea of want doesn't make sense. What else would the heart do?

It beats until it no longer can, and then it stops. Very simple.

That is my experience with life and it's "parts" and "people". They just do what they do. Simple. Recognizing that relieves a lot of suffering. Perhaps all of it....

It's fun to pretend to have control for some people I suppose. I mean, it would be if it didn't make them so incredibly unhappy. And the only thing that's worse about being incredibly unhappy is trying to pretend your not, or that you can wish it or control it away. Then you can't deal with it. it's like, the only thing worse than getting a bad cut and it hurting is pretending it's not there. Then you have it, have the experience of it, AND are not going to be taking any steps to let it heal. And it may hurt a little more at first even while cleaning it out and bandaging it, but it's the very attention to that which heals the wound. Same with emotional wounds. The control story gets thrown around a lot by people that are emotionally bleeding all over the place and trying to pretend their not.

Very sad. People deserve to feel better as far as I'm concerned. But what can you do if they don't want to deal with the process of ACTUALLY making it better?

I mean, if we are honest with ourselves, wasn't the next thing ALWAYS just presented to us by life? I mean, we can take credit for the fact afterwards, but life has been running the show the whole time. There is great comfort and freedom in recognizing that. After all, it's already going on. It's just that you can wish life were different because of a lack of understanding it fully, or you can dive right and go through what it takes to understand it fully. The first of those brings untold suffering. The second brings blissful reprieve that does not need to negate any part of life, including the "bad" parts.

Nov 16, 2009 8:14:54 GMT -5 Peter said:

Hi Divinity - "What Is" - as I understand it - has a special meaning in the context of spiritual work to indicate a Higher or Objective Reality (you can't use too many capital letters here). Also described as "That Which Is".

It's a valid question - whether or not we can create our own reality. It's the "blue pill" decision Cypher makes in The Matrix. I found a relevant essay about it here. Like this quote especially:

So the metaphor of the journey to truth that Neo takes is complete. The journey starts with a question, there is a search for the answer and the answer may be reached. This shows us that the journey does not start with Neo choosing between the pills, or with ourselves deciding whether to question. The act of asking the question is itself the starting point as the aim of asking the question is to seek truth and knowledge.

I've a friend who is posting "The Secret" / Manifesting / Attraction / Universal Ordering type things on Facebook fairly constantly. I haven't challenged her on it yet... it's her choice to believe whatever she wants to.

I think Divinity makes a very valid point to say that TV manipulates the population into a state of fear. Although, fear may be a very valid reaction to facing up to the Reality of what is happening in the world, rather than just being part of the "control" system.

I don't have a strong philosophical argument on this one, just a feeling that "You Create Your Own Reality" (and similar philosphies) amount to sticking one's head in the sand about what's going on in the world. I'll finish with the poem First They Came

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

EDIT: Whoops, ZenDancer got his post in while I was composing this one.

[Portto]

IMO, everybody gave good replies to "Divinity's" post.

However, we have all kind of been cold to her...

Edit: the above (simultaneous) post is getting warmer