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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:45:59 GMT -5
Slowing or stilling the mind takes effort, and even that is only because mind is struggling with itself; wanting to think and wanting to stop. The noticing happens effortlessly in that empty space that remains. Noticing (realization) cannot require effort because it is not a function of mind. The efforting mind is absent when noticing occurs. Noticing and realization are interchangeable concepts to you? Likewise. It takes effort to climb a mountain but you wouldn't say it takes effort to fall off just because you couldn't have fallen if you didn't climb. It doesn't really matter if you say you efforted to fall off the mountain, but in the case of noticing, it's important to notice that noticing itself is effortless. It's important because at some point the effort must cease. If it ceases at the beginning, the beginning and the end are the same. You don't need to do anything. What is all the effort for but to end the effort? |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:48:44 GMT -5
I don't get confused by page breaks, and I've been reading all the posts, I just don't know what you're saying likewise to. Does it mean you agree with the list or what? My guess it that it was the second sentence more than the third. The second sentence of what? What about the second sentence?  |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:50:56 GMT -5
The mutation I'm talking about is the extremely complex process of the brain that functions as the capacity for self reflection, labeling and problem solving. And I'm saying the capacity for self reflection is one aspect of an advanced intellect, but that aspect alone doesn't imply survival advantage. (If the absence of a capacity is a disadvantage, then the presence of it is an advantage)  I'd argue that planning at the level of a tribe and passing cultural artifacts between generations such as how to make tools or follow the cycles of the moon and the tides or care for domesticated animals or plant and care for crops necessarily involve reflection based on the abstractions of the group and the individuals among which labor is divided -- all these were directly related to self-reference and led to higher survival rates for peeps. Now the question of advantage/disadvantage isn't one that is static over time. If we view the possibility of extinction as a sort of contest between a species and its environment, then a species that got really good at fighting and mastering it's environment would do well as long as it was small in proportion to it. The war with the world isn't one that humanity can ever hope to win in the long run. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:51:54 GMT -5
"To spell correctly is a talent, not an acquirement. There is some dignity about an acquirement, because it is a product of your own labor. It is wages earned, whereas to be able to do a thing merely by the grace of God and not by your own effort transfers the distinction to our heavenly home--where possibly it is a matter of pride and satisfaction but it leaves you naked and bankrupt." - Mark Twain's AutobiographyNaked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it?  I'd thank you to keep that dull and rusted edge away from my nakedness kind sir. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:53:37 GMT -5
I assume the "random mutation" you're referring to is ego, or self identification. I don't see it as a mutation but rather as a natural consequence of increased sophistication of the mind. This greater potential, which we could say is the result of mutation (in this context) improves survivability, and also allows for biological self awareness, but that doesn't imply that self identification is a survival advantage. No self identification, no language. Is language a survival advantage? Well....yes.  |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:53:59 GMT -5
I think you should have at least gotten an honorable mention .. hehe nah, he's an evil frog. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 11, 2014 20:54:12 GMT -5
My guess it that it was the second sentence more than the third. The second sentence of what? What about the second sentence? The second sentence of my post he first responded "likewise" to. I suspect he was agreeing with the second sentence. "The word commitment comes to mind. I don't think it is a coincidence that those who have committed themselves to long periods of internal vigilance/exploration over long periods of time usually end up with a kind of indefinable authority and clarity that other so called teachers seem to lack. Niz, Ramana, Tolle, ZD, Adyashanti, Klein, Mooji to name a few who have that in common." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/user/1057/recent#ixzz3A8eUKmIz |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:55:33 GMT -5
"To spell correctly is a talent, not an acquirement. There is some dignity about an acquirement, because it is a product of your own labor. It is wages earned, whereas to be able to do a thing merely by the grace of God and not by your own effort transfers the distinction to our heavenly home--where possibly it is a matter of pride and satisfaction but it leaves you naked and bankrupt." - Mark Twain's AutobiographyNaked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it? Yes, but I think you are to do that naked. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 11, 2014 20:56:46 GMT -5
Naked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it? I'd thank you to keep that dull and rusted edge away from my nakedness kind sir. But it has excellent provenance.  |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:58:46 GMT -5
I likewise that effort is not arbitrary, but neither is volition. Whether or not there is a center is critical to coming to terms with judgment and separation. Huh? I think you missed what I was saying. Actually happens: choice. No center needed for choice to happen. Arbitrary label describing the experience of choice: volition. (center assumed) Actually happens: effort. No center needed for effort to happen. Roight, volition doesn't say anything about choosing or efforting happening or not. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 11, 2014 21:00:26 GMT -5
Naked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it? Yes, but I think you are to do that naked. What does the non-existent look like naked? |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 21:04:10 GMT -5
An unfortunate break between pages 5 & 6, the previous two posts were about conscious efforts, the comment likewise, likewise. (Although you could probably leave Ramana and Tolle off the list). sdp Tolle never mentioned a witnessing practice as part of his experience but (and this has been speculated on before, by ZD if I'm not mistaken), his adeptness at writing the prescription that he did might have been due to the way he spent the years on the park bench in between his experience of sudden ego collapse and writing his first book. He definitely, by his own description, used that time to effect what is referred to on the forum as "informing the mind". Technically, he did at least one moment of (split-minded) witnessing that led to the experience: "Am I one or two? If I cannot live with myself, there must be two of me: the 'I' and the 'self' that 'I' cannot live with. Maybe only one of them is real." |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 21:07:36 GMT -5
And I'm saying the capacity for self reflection is one aspect of an advanced intellect, but that aspect alone doesn't imply survival advantage. (If the absence of a capacity is a disadvantage, then the presence of it is an advantage) I'd argue that planning at the level of a tribe and passing cultural artifacts between generations such as how to make tools or follow the cycles of the moon and the tides or care for domesticated animals or plant and care for crops necessarily involve reflection based on the abstractions of the group and the individuals among which labor is divided -- all these were directly related to self-reference and led to higher survival rates for peeps. Now the question of advantage/disadvantage isn't one that is static over time. If we view the possibility of extinction as a sort of contest between a species and its environment, then a species that got really good at fighting and mastering it's environment would do well as long as it was small in proportion to it. The war with the world isn't one that humanity can ever hope to win in the long run. To the first paragraph, what if all these primitives were born 'enlightened' and never fell into illusory identification? They would be like a bunch of Niz's running around sharing their knowledge and cigarettes and arguing with each other, right? |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 21:09:28 GMT -5
Naked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it? I'd thank you to keep that dull and rusted edge away from my nakedness kind sir. So yer okay with it if it's shiny and sharp?  |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 21:11:04 GMT -5
I think you should have at least gotten an honorable mention .. hehe nah, he's an evil frog. Evil frogs are people too, ya know.  |
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