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Post by quinn on Aug 11, 2014 20:10:16 GMT -5
Where did the idea to be mindful come from? When you first thought up or came across that idea, was there effort involved in being mindful? Is there effort now in ATA? I agree with your hunch about either movement being conditioned. To the question of effort, though, seems to me it's required as long as there's any zombie-hood going on. For some reason conditioning led me to a point where krishnamurti, alan watts, thich nhat hanh seemed to make a glimmer of sense. Eventually this led to sitting on a cushion. Reading and listening to dharma talks and essays eventually conditioned this teeny brain so that one day it was clearly noticed that the incessant negative thought loops were just a repeating pattern. Behold, what a relief. And on... I don't have a problem labelling all sorts of stuff in that particular story of conditioning as effort. And I don't have a problem with the notion that labeling those experiences effort is also just another exercise in arbitrary labeling. What's interesting to me is how conditioning leads to conditioning. This particular line of conditioning seems to be leading away from labels like 'effort' and 'volition' and such, despite Tzu's valiant attempts to the contrary. I disagree that effort is an arbitrary label. Even potentially arbitrary. Volition is an arbitrary label. Choices are made, decisions are weighed - this is all obvious stuff, eh? But volition is a label slapped on that whole process that infers a center of some sort where this choosing business emanates from. Arbitrary, unnecessary, and potentially confusing. Effort, on the other hand, happens. It doesn't infer a doer any more than choice infers a doer. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:15:34 GMT -5
An unfortunate break between pages 5 & 6, the previous two posts were about conscious efforts, the comment likewise, likewise. (Although you could probably leave Ramana and Tolle off the list). sdp I don't get confused by page breaks, and I've been reading all the posts, I just don't know what you're saying likewise to. Does it mean you agree with the list or what? |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:20:31 GMT -5
Yes. Do I get an A+?  It's not clear what you're saying yes to. sdp ah .. uhm .. he kinda' underlined it ... |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:21:49 GMT -5
The word commitment comes to mind. I don't think it is a coincidence that those who have committed themselves to long periods of internal vigilance/exploration over long periods of time usually end up with a kind of indefinable authority and clarity that other so called teachers seem to lack. Niz, Ramana, Tolle, ZD, Adyashanti, Klein, Mooji to name a few who have that in common. Likewise. heh heh. (I agree.) Okay, I can adapt to whatever version of English you's guys are using. |
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Post by quinn on Aug 11, 2014 20:22:19 GMT -5
From almost total unconsciousness (beginning meditation), noticing takes effort. That seems really obvious to me. Slowing or stilling the mind takes effort, and even that is only because mind is struggling with itself; wanting to think and wanting to stop. The noticing happens effortlessly in that empty space that remains. Noticing (realization) cannot require effort because it is not a function of mind. The efforting mind is absent when noticing occurs. Noticing and realization are interchangeable concepts to you? In my experience, effort led to the opening up of a space where noticing could occur. It's just common sentence structure/usage to word it as "noticing takes effort". |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 11, 2014 20:24:42 GMT -5
An unfortunate break between pages 5 & 6, the previous two posts were about conscious efforts, the comment likewise, likewise. (Although you could probably leave Ramana and Tolle off the list). sdp I don't get confused by page breaks, and I've been reading all the posts, I just don't know what you're saying likewise to. Does it mean you agree with the list or what? My guess it that it was the second sentence more than the third. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:25:04 GMT -5
And I'm saying the capacity for self reflection is one aspect of an advanced intellect, but that aspect alone doesn't imply survival advantage. (If the absence of a capacity is a disadvantage, then the presence of it is an advantage)  Fair enough. Then I think we could say that it is the highly evolved advanced intellect as a whole that IS advantageous to survival, but the self reflection is simply a useless yet inevitable byproduct of it. Likewise.  |
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Post by quinn on Aug 11, 2014 20:26:32 GMT -5
From almost total unconsciousness (beginning meditation), noticing takes effort. That seems really obvious to me. Thank you. sdp Likewise. (cracking myself up here  ) |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:28:09 GMT -5
"To spell correctly is a talent, not an acquirement. There is some dignity about an acquirement, because it is a product of your own labor. It is wages earned, whereas to be able to do a thing merely by the grace of God and not by your own effort transfers the distinction to our heavenly home--where possibly it is a matter of pride and satisfaction but it leaves you naked and bankrupt." - Mark Twain's Autobiography |
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Post by quinn on Aug 11, 2014 20:29:39 GMT -5
Fair enough. Then I think we could say that it is the highly evolved advanced intellect as a whole that IS advantageous to survival, but the self reflection is simply a useless yet inevitable byproduct of it. Likewise. Haha! Great silly minds...  |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:31:53 GMT -5
For some reason conditioning led me to a point where krishnamurti, alan watts, thich nhat hanh seemed to make a glimmer of sense. Eventually this led to sitting on a cushion. Reading and listening to dharma talks and essays eventually conditioned this teeny brain so that one day it was clearly noticed that the incessant negative thought loops were just a repeating pattern. Behold, what a relief. And on... I don't have a problem labelling all sorts of stuff in that particular story of conditioning as effort. And I don't have a problem with the notion that labeling those experiences effort is also just another exercise in arbitrary labeling. What's interesting to me is how conditioning leads to conditioning. This particular line of conditioning seems to be leading away from labels like 'effort' and 'volition' and such, despite Tzu's valiant attempts to the contrary. I disagree that effort is an arbitrary label. Even potentially arbitrary. Volition is an arbitrary label. Choices are made, decisions are weighed - this is all obvious stuff, eh? But volition is a label slapped on that whole process that infers a center of some sort where this choosing business emanates from. Arbitrary, unnecessary, and potentially confusing. Effort, on the other hand, happens. It doesn't infer a doer any more than choice infers a doer. I likewise that effort is not arbitrary, but neither is volition. Whether or not there is a center is critical to coming to terms with judgment and separation. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 11, 2014 20:33:49 GMT -5
It's not clear what you're saying yes to. sdp ah .. uhm .. he kinda' underlined it ... He still hasn't told me if I get an A+ for it. I guess I'll have to wait for the grades to come out.  |
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Post by laughter on Aug 11, 2014 20:36:35 GMT -5
I think it may be 'helpful' to understand that the human mind, like all our other traits, began as a random mutation in the brains (which were also mutations) of some of our remote ancestors. At the time, the presence and behavior of the mutation was obviously NOT a hindrance to the survival of the individuals who possesed it, because if it was, it never could have caught on as a trait of the species. In fact, the individuals who DIDN'T have the mutation must have been at a disadvantage to the ones who did, because in the long run, their evolutionary path came to an end. That's the way all evolution works. In hindsight, however, it has become clear that the mind has been just as much a burden as it has been a blessing, because it is the ultimate cause of all suffering. That said, its presence is just as natural as that of anything else in nature. I assume the "random mutation" you're referring to is ego, or self identification. I don't see it as a mutation but rather as a natural consequence of increased sophistication of the mind. This greater potential, which we could say is the result of mutation (in this context) improves survivability, and also allows for biological self awareness, but that doesn't imply that self identification is a survival advantage. No self identification, no language. Is language a survival advantage? |
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 11, 2014 20:39:19 GMT -5
"To spell correctly is a talent, not an acquirement. There is some dignity about an acquirement, because it is a product of your own labor. It is wages earned, whereas to be able to do a thing merely by the grace of God and not by your own effort transfers the distinction to our heavenly home--where possibly it is a matter of pride and satisfaction but it leaves you naked and bankrupt." - Mark Twain's AutobiographyNaked and bankrupt? I thought you were suppose to put the ax to it? |
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Post by quinn on Aug 11, 2014 20:43:10 GMT -5
I disagree that effort is an arbitrary label. Even potentially arbitrary. Volition is an arbitrary label. Choices are made, decisions are weighed - this is all obvious stuff, eh? But volition is a label slapped on that whole process that infers a center of some sort where this choosing business emanates from. Arbitrary, unnecessary, and potentially confusing. Effort, on the other hand, happens. It doesn't infer a doer any more than choice infers a doer. I likewise that effort is not arbitrary, but neither is volition. Whether or not there is a center is critical to coming to terms with judgment and separation. Huh? I think you missed what I was saying. Actually happens: choice. No center needed for choice to happen. Arbitrary label describing the experience of choice: volition. (center assumed) Actually happens: effort. No center needed for effort to happen. |
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