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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2014 9:51:44 GMT -5
My apologies to rupa, earnest and laughter in case you say, but that's what I said (when the answer gets posted). I tried to get you to clarify, but as that was not forthcoming, I couldn't verify. sdp Sorry sdp,. not quite up to speed in this thread... I did have an interesting sit this morning though that may or may not be related to the koany thing. ZDs "where is your wrist" thing was rolling around in my head and then,. WTF,. wrist is just an fkn idea! The actual experience is its all the one thing, so everything is here. The most basic actual experience is that one thing is not separate from another. Thinking or not thinking about it doesn't make any difference. Head tingling! Ha  Indubitably. sdp |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 10:23:10 GMT -5
My apologies to rupa, earnest and laughter in case you say, but that's what I said (when the answer gets posted). I tried to get you to clarify, but as that was not forthcoming, I couldn't verify. sdp Sorry sdp,. not quite up to speed in this thread... I did have an interesting sit this morning though that may or may not be related to the koany thing. ZDs "where is your wrist" thing was rolling around in my head and then,. WTF,. wrist is just an fkn idea! The actual experience is its all the one thing, so everything is here. The most basic actual experience is that one thing is not separate from another. Thinking or not thinking about it doesn't make any difference. Head tingling! Ha Groovy. The wrist thingy is good for demonstrating how mind forms distinctions and then comes to accept them as inherently separate parts rather than arbitrary distinctions. It's relatively easy to see because there's no clear point at which a wrist (or thigh or chest) begins and ends. Without the idea, there literally is no 'part'. The mind goes through that same process of making distinctions with everything it perceives until it seems obvious that the world is made up of separate parts that interact together, and yet there are just appearances being perceived, or perception happening, and the distinctions are ideas about those appearances. A way to get a sense of non-separation in that larger context is in our nightly dreams in which there appear to be innumerable objects and various other sensory perceptions, and yet it is all just activity of the mind and the separate objects are an illusion. Sometimes the movie screen analogy is used for the same purpose. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2014 10:41:33 GMT -5
Fifth Exercise - Awareness of Bodily Positions
Moreover, when a practitioner walks, he is aware, 'I am walking.' When he is standing, he is aware, 'I am standing.' When he is sitting, he is aware, 'I am sitting.' When he is lying down, he is aware, 'I am lying down'. In whatever position his body happens to be, he is aware of the position of his body.
This exercise is the observation in mindfulness of the positions of the body. This is not just an exercise to be practiced at the time of sitting meditation or in the meditation. The meditation practices taught in The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness can be used all the day long to help the practitioner remain in mindfulness. .................
Sitting here
is like sitting under the Bodhi tree.
My body is mindfulness itself,
entirely free from distraction.
.........................
The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness (Version One) Satipatthana Sutta (Theravada)
Section One
I heard these words of the Buddha one time when he was living at Kammassadhaarma.........
1. Bhikkhus, a practitioner remains established in the observation of the body in the body, diligent, with clear understanding, mindful, having abandoned every craving and every distaste for this life. ............
Section Two
'And how does a practitioner remain established in the observation of the body in the body? ...........
........he is mindful of the fact, 'There is a body here,' until understanding and full awareness come about.
from Transformation and Healing, Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1990, pages 49,3,4,5
...........................
Yes, this is what this thread was all about. Why was this important to the Buddha and other teachings? The physical body always exists in the present moment, unlike the mind which usually either exists in the past through memory or the future through imagination. If the mind is conceptualizing, abstracting (thinking), it is almost invariably not in the present moment.
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Post by mamza on May 20, 2014 10:42:47 GMT -5
Somebody got it. He can post or I will confirm that he got it first, with permission.. sdp I suppose I'm the one who got it. Am I supposed to post the answer? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2014 10:48:55 GMT -5
Somebody got it. He can post or I will confirm that he got it first, with permission.. sdp I suppose I'm the one who got it. Am I supposed to post the answer? I promise everybody we didn't plan this  . Yes, please do (you are one minute late)  Yes, mamza really got it Sunday night, in a zd sort of way. However, I delayed confirmation for precise words. sdp |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 11:23:08 GMT -5
Fifth Exercise - Awareness of Bodily PositionsMoreover, when a practitioner walks, he is aware, 'I am walking.' When he is standing, he is aware, 'I am standing.' When he is sitting, he is aware, 'I am sitting.' When he is lying down, he is aware, 'I am lying down'. In whatever position his body happens to be, he is aware of the position of his body.This exercise is the observation in mindfulness of the positions of the body. This is not just an exercise to be practiced at the time of sitting meditation or in the meditation. The meditation practices taught in The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness can be used all the day long to help the practitioner remain in mindfulness. ................. Sitting here
is like sitting under the Bodhi tree.
My body is mindfulness itself,
entirely free from distraction.......................... The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness (Version One) Satipatthana Sutta (Theravada) Section OneI heard these words of the Buddha one time when he was living at Kammassadhaarma......... 1. Bhikkhus, a practitioner remains established in the observation of the body in the body, diligent, with clear understanding, mindful, having abandoned every craving and every distaste for this life. ............ Section Two'And how does a practitioner remain established in the observation of the body in the body? ........... ........he is mindful of the fact, 'There is a body here,' until understanding and full awareness come about. from Transformation and Healing, Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1990, pages 49,3,4,5 ........................... Yes, this is what this thread was all about. Why was this important to the Buddha and other teachings? The physical body always exists in the present moment, unlike the mind which usually either exists in the past through memory or the future through imagination. If the mind is conceptualizing, abstracting (thinking), it is almost invariably not in the present moment. So 'the body' is the answer to the nearly immortal question "What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now?" Firstly, I wouldn't assume that nobody here is mindful of the body. Secondly, I suspect everybody here knows that this is why ATA points to what the physical senses can register; because the body/senses are present and thought is an abstraction about the present. Is this a recent discovery of yours? |
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Post by mamza on May 20, 2014 11:29:27 GMT -5
Where are you when you ata-mt? The body.
My original answer was to hold up a fist, but he wanted those words.
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Post by laughter on May 20, 2014 12:48:55 GMT -5
Where are you when you ata-mt? The body. My original answer was to hold up a fist, but he wanted those words. Those words suck! They embody an ambiguity! |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 18:39:58 GMT -5
Where are you when you ata-mt? The body. My original answer was to hold up a fist, but he wanted those words. Are you in the body or just kinda hitching a ride? |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 18:41:30 GMT -5
Where are you when you ata-mt? The body. My original answer was to hold up a fist, but he wanted those words. Those words suck! They embody an ambiguity! Is the ambiguity in the body, or is the body in the ambiguity?  |
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Post by mamza on May 20, 2014 19:12:21 GMT -5
Where are you when you ata-mt? The body. My original answer was to hold up a fist, but he wanted those words. Are you in the body or just kinda hitching a ride? This would be why I prefer physical answers rather than worded ones. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2014 19:12:23 GMT -5
Fifth Exercise - Awareness of Bodily PositionsMoreover, when a practitioner walks, he is aware, 'I am walking.' When he is standing, he is aware, 'I am standing.' When he is sitting, he is aware, 'I am sitting.' When he is lying down, he is aware, 'I am lying down'. In whatever position his body happens to be, he is aware of the position of his body.This exercise is the observation in mindfulness of the positions of the body. This is not just an exercise to be practiced at the time of sitting meditation or in the meditation. The meditation practices taught in The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness can be used all the day long to help the practitioner remain in mindfulness. ................. Sitting here
is like sitting under the Bodhi tree.
My body is mindfulness itself,
entirely free from distraction.......................... The Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness (Version One) Satipatthana Sutta (Theravada) Section OneI heard these words of the Buddha one time when he was living at Kammassadhaarma......... 1. Bhikkhus, a practitioner remains established in the observation of the body in the body, diligent, with clear understanding, mindful, having abandoned every craving and every distaste for this life. ............ Section Two'And how does a practitioner remain established in the observation of the body in the body? ........... ........he is mindful of the fact, 'There is a body here,' until understanding and full awareness come about. from Transformation and Healing, Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1990, pages 49,3,4,5 ........................... Yes, this is what this thread was all about. Why was this important to the Buddha and other teachings? The physical body always exists in the present moment, unlike the mind which usually either exists in the past through memory or the future through imagination. If the mind is conceptualizing, abstracting (thinking), it is almost invariably not in the present moment. So 'the body' is the answer to the nearly immortal question "What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now?" Firstly, I wouldn't assume that nobody here is mindful of the body. Secondly, I suspect everybody here knows that this is why ATA points to what the physical senses can register; because the body/senses are present and thought is an abstraction about the present. Is this a recent discovery of yours? Yes. I didn't say that nobody experiences it. I said the shift from not-experiencing to experiencing is illusive. Meaning, when you are not-experiencing it, you are not aware of not-experiencing it. It's sort-of like the absence thread, I agree, one can't experience the absence of self. I wanted to show that one can not-experience something that is always present. I said that if I told you, you wouldn't believe me. ATA-MT actually points away from the body. Thus, the question: In ATA-MT, where are ~ you~, in a sense? However, there are some practices regularly referred to here that do point directly to the body, observing the breath for one. That's why I asked for clarification from laughter. I did everything I could to pull the whole answer out of anybody posting. Fingers were mentioned, rupa's butt, the head, toes, the stomach referred to (in a way that someone in particular would understand), laughter's breath-in--breath-out, rupa's I'm sitting in front of my computer, I said it's something zd refers to often instead of saying I. At this point, it is what it is. Not a recent discovery. This (the question you restated) was pointed out to me 38 years ago. A great deal of my posting here, in some manner, pointed to this. Buddha obviously considered it significant. sdp |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 19:19:07 GMT -5
Are you in the body or just kinda hitching a ride? This would be why I prefer physical answers rather than worded ones. Shorry, it's necessary to ask you a few questions before your winnings can be transferred to your bank account.  So what you mean to say is that your attention is focused on the bodily senses? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 20, 2014 19:21:21 GMT -5
Are you in the body or just kinda hitching a ride? This would be why I prefer physical answers rather than worded ones. That probably works, when the questioner and the answerer, are physically present to each other. To the marrow of my bones (indicating all of them) would have been OK. From the tip of my toes to the top of my head, would have been OK. I don't doubt that you had it. Sunday night I told mamza I was 99 & 44/100% sure he had it, but an indication of the whole was important to me. sdp |
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Post by enigma on May 20, 2014 19:33:56 GMT -5
So 'the body' is the answer to the nearly immortal question "What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now?" Firstly, I wouldn't assume that nobody here is mindful of the body. Secondly, I suspect everybody here knows that this is why ATA points to what the physical senses can register; because the body/senses are present and thought is an abstraction about the present. Is this a recent discovery of yours? Yes. I didn't say that nobody experiences it. You implied it. You said "What are you not experiencing the (non)absence of right now?" Okay, that's a good thing to point out. It's also true of what you actually are, (you are never the body) which is always present but typically goes undetected for that reason. But of course I believe you. My opinion is that ATA points toward the body. It IS significant. I've not said that it is not. It's just that it's relatively common knowledge and we could have saved 15 pages of the Bob Barker game show if you had just said it out loud.  |
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