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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 11:13:35 GMT -5
Yeah, it's a no-brainer and the escape hatch for those who know better on that account is to identify with a mind-made object that transcends mind and body. [img src="http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/yahoo/whist ling-yahoo-emoticon.gif" alt=" "] ... that way they get to be a peep++. It's a great deal! It's a bargain I tells ya'!.. It's possible to simultaneously see free-will as an illusion, and yet to expect persons to behave in accordance with the norms of the social contract, and to see that a perpetrators actions are the cumulative result of a long life of aberrant conditioning, and allow for the presumption of free-will and personal choice and intent as being some sort of metric for determining justice. The underlined in your post is a very very dead horse. Please refrain from the insult of continuing to whack at it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 11:26:39 GMT -5
The "escape hatch" is the illusion that you have no 'free-will', so that abusive behavior can be blamed on something other that the choice to be that way.. Well, as that's as vague as it is convoluted, I've responded in detail here out of respect for the others on the thread, but it's worth mentioning that the absence of volition very obviously doesn't mean that people can't be held accountable for harm done to others. I don't know, it's more obvious to me that this is one of the primary fears that keeps the illusion in place. Folks think that not believing in volition/free-will will turn you into a natural born killer and slacker eating babies for breakfast or something. My guess that the illusions loss, as with the loss of the obsessive self-reference makes one more naturally sensitive and considerate to the needs and feelings of those around them. In vibratory terms, the loss of those mental constrictions increases the amplitude and creates more space and awareness for what is actually happening. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -5
My guess is that a person dropped off on an a deserted island right after birth would eventually self identify as a separate being (let's assume survival happens).Partly because he has the cognitive ability to contemplate such things, and partly because the illusion points in that direction. Ok so is it possible to raise some one from birth in such a way that self identification doesn't happen? My guess is yes. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 13, 2015 11:35:57 GMT -5
And which way would that be?  The TMT starts with the article dude.  ... yer interested in that guy's TMT but not the question that reveals it for that, and that's the non-investigation Niz was talkin' about. The question "does the absence of volition mean the fact of predetermination?" is an invitation to stop thinking about a purely conceptual dichotomy. The article was meant at a nudge for other guy in the conversation. Showing another side of the issue. Probably shouldn't have put it in your side of the convo. From this POV all discussion about volition, free will etc only concerns the "play of duality" we find ourselves experiencing. Can the sins/accompishments (tendencies) of the father's be projected into the 3rd and 4th generations? Absolutely. Abusers beget abusers. President Bush begets a President Bush. Does it have anything to do with who you really are? None what so ever. Does it have an affect on the character you play in the Grand Illusion? Yes. Can that character be changed/altered/improved? Yes. As Niz says, meditation can have a most beneficial effect on our character. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 11:40:38 GMT -5
Ok so is it possible to raise some one from birth in such a way that self identification doesn't happen? Maybe it is inevitable but probably it (self identification) is less severe in tribal life. I think you're pointing in the right direction. It would be a wholly different linguistic/cultural environment, maybe absent the personal pronouns, etc. I can't really comprehend it in this environment. Gender identification might be a similar phenomenon on a much smaller scale. My daughter seemed to be born loving dolls, my son action. No doubt genetic stuff is at play, but those natural tendencies continually get pruned and shaped. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 13, 2015 14:12:49 GMT -5
Well, as that's as vague as it is convoluted, I've responded in detail here out of respect for the others on the thread, but it's worth mentioning that the absence of volition very obviously doesn't mean that people can't be held accountable for harm done to others. I don't know, it's more obvious to me that this is one of the primary fears that keeps the illusion in place. Folks think that not believing in volition/free-will will turn you into a natural born killer and slacker eating babies for breakfast or something. My guess that the illusions loss, as with the loss of the obsessive self-reference makes one more naturally sensitive and considerate to the needs and feelings of those around them. In vibratory terms, the loss of those mental constrictions increases the amplitude and creates more space and awareness for what is actually happening. Hey I'm outta' ketchup over here, u got any??  (** gives spit over fire a 1/4 turn ... **) |
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Post by andrew on Feb 13, 2015 14:29:32 GMT -5
Ok so is it possible to raise some one from birth in such a way that self identification doesn't happen? My guess is yes. yep. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 13, 2015 14:37:57 GMT -5
And which way would that be? The TMT starts with the article dude. ... yer interested in that guy's TMT but not the question that reveals it for that, and that's the non-investigation Niz was talkin' about. The question "does the absence of volition mean the fact of predetermination?" is an invitation to stop thinking about a purely conceptual dichotomy. The article was meant at a nudge for other guy in the conversation. Showing another side of the issue. Probably shouldn't have put it in your side of the convo. From this POV all discussion about volition, free will etc only concerns the "play of duality" we find ourselves experiencing. Can the sins/accompishments (tendencies) of the father's be projected into the 3rd and 4th generations? Absolutely. Abusers beget abusers. President Bush begets a President Bush. Does it have anything to do with who you really are? None what so ever. Does it have an affect on the character you play in the Grand Illusion? Yes. Can that character be changed/altered/improved? Yes. As Niz says, meditation can have a most beneficial effect on our character. Yes, I agree with every point you make but Nichols just takes his readers on another spin 'round the carousel. To be symmetric here, I didn't respond to E' or SN or maxy on the sciency take about delayed consciousness of decisions because in my opinion, intellectual justification of one end of the dichotomy or the other is just more mind chatter. In this I'm pretty much with figandrew with the distinction between them and myself being that I don't have any interest in analyzing whether or not my "face value experience of choosing freely" is of any significance, because to me, it obviously isn't. Of course if you put Nichols together with the SANDman it provides motivation to consider the results of the delayed consciousness experiments because as Nichols points out, most peeps take free will for granted. Some people will react strongly and negatively to the idea of the absence of volition and other's won't. I don't really have much of a personal reference for either feeling, and never did, but my opinions on the pointer are often an onramp to the debate. It's nuthin' but an innocent wrong turn I tells ya'!  If you bypass the whole question of biology altogether, there's a TMT argument available rooted in Physics in support of something that RM once allegedly said: "both destiny and free-will are ever evident". The entire debate is a farce because as E' points out it's all rooted in mind/body identification. It's self-inquiry directed outward. In terms of the science, the question is only important if the physical object of the brain is taken as the source of the phenomenon of consciousness. |
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Post by zin on Feb 13, 2015 17:51:28 GMT -5
Maybe it is inevitable but probably it (self identification) is less severe in tribal life. If you picture culture as a sort of inverted pyramid, at the tip that is the base of the recognition of "me-in-the-world". Building on that is identification with the family unit and that in turn forms the basis of the clan which is the basic building block of the tribe. What comes after that? I don't know, what? I mentioned tribal life because of something I had heard before.. But it is more related to being self-centered or not.. It was like, some children there were told to run a race and get something to eat as the prize and the children said "why should we race and only the winner gets the prize, we will just share it".. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 13, 2015 18:27:31 GMT -5
If you picture culture as a sort of inverted pyramid, at the tip that is the base of the recognition of "me-in-the-world". Building on that is identification with the family unit and that in turn forms the basis of the clan which is the basic building block of the tribe. What comes after that? I don't know, what? I mentioned tribal life because of something I had heard before.. But it is more related to being self-centered or not.. It was like, some children there were told to run a race and get something to eat as the prize and the children said "why should we race and only the winner gets the prize, we will just share it".. The next level in the hierarchy after tribe is city-state, and that's what comprises a nation. It's an arms race from the fig leave to the hydrogen bomb. The story you mention is a pleasant one and even if it never happened it illustrates the point that a close knit community is likely to have less in the way of boundaries between the individuals and the groups that comprise it, but historically, isn't such a community more than likely to form a different boundary looking outward? Doesn't that community, relative to an individual or a family or a clan, potentially form an expanded horizon for us vs. them? In terms of survival, isn't it just a different form of identity than an individual facing the world alone? That idea of an individual facing the world alone is really sort of a modern invention of a person who takes for granted how much they rely on the people and the artifacts of the culture around them. There's a tendency to glamorize the past that seems sort of universal in the human psyche that is likely a function of sentimentality. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2015 20:06:25 GMT -5
Ok so is it possible to raise some one from birth in such a way that self identification doesn't happen? Maybe it is inevitable but probably it (self identification) is less severe in tribal life. What sort of tribe are you thinking of? To my knowledge, there isn't one that doesn't self identify as separate persons, though I would be interested if there is. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2015 20:15:32 GMT -5
Yeah, it's a no-brainer and the escape hatch for those who know better on that account is to identify with a mind-made object that transcends mind and body.  ... that way they get to be a peep++. It's a great deal! It's a bargain I tells ya'! The "escape hatch" is the illusion that you have no 'free-will', so that abusive behavior can be blamed on something other that the choice to be that way.. That's an opinion from the peep++ perspective.  |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2015 20:20:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I think whatever the mechanism, it seems inevitable. After all, ya can't wake up if ya don't fall asleep. ... and the slumber is just a fact.  .. peeps gettin' all offended by that metaphor as a put down is just a kinda' nice little bonus.  Everybody 'falls asleep' in that way, so of course it's not meant as a personal insult, though it might be a wake up call. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2015 20:23:48 GMT -5
The "escape hatch" is the illusion that you have no 'free-will', so that abusive behavior can be blamed on something other that the choice to be that way.. Well, as that's as vague as it is convoluted, I've responded in detail here out of respect for the others on the thread, but it's worth mentioning that the absence of volition very obviously doesn't mean that people can't be held accountable for harm done to others. In fact, it might be noticed than none of us nonvolitioners ever disclaim responsibility for what we say here. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 13, 2015 20:25:22 GMT -5
Maybe it is inevitable but probably it (self identification) is less severe in tribal life. If you picture culture as a sort of inverted pyramid, at the tip that is the base of the recognition of "me-in-the-world". Building on that is identification with the family unit and that in turn forms the basis of the clan which is the basic building block of the tribe. What comes after that? Rules of behavior? |
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... yer interested in that guy's TMT but not the question that reveals it for that, and that's the non-investigation
