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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2015 21:39:17 GMT -5
Okay, I'll change my answer to thermonuclear war.  Peeps always drone on and on about ascension and angels and 2012 and yadda yadda yadda and ignore the miracle right under their noses that we've haven't blown ourselves away already. For all they know "The Big Shift" happened back in November 1962.  HA! It's a valid point. |
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Post by zin on Feb 15, 2015 7:57:51 GMT -5
I was not thinking of next levels at all. I thought like, just now, just today, the child lives in a tribe and lives in a less self-centered environment. S/he doesn't have too much reason for thinking about or defending 'self', etc. I admit that I didn't think about 'self-identification' much, didn't see it as the problem of separate selves. Did you write this about the isolated child idea? I wrote it about self-identification in general ... please forgive my overthinking about hierarchies as that was just offered as a counterpoint to the idea that self-identification is potentially less severe in children from a tribal society. Obviously a child in a simpler culture has less to think about and a world view that's relatively uncluttered by the sophistication and complexity that presents itself to a kid in the States, but the point of the counterpoint was to highlight that any "measure" of self-identification is at the root of that hierarchy. Dialog about self-identification can easily turn toward two lines of contradictory reasoning, and that has to do with the nature of identity. The fact is that all of those boundaries in the heirarchy: self, family, clan, tribe, city, state are all creations of the mind. Curious, when I read your inverted pyramite example I was very astonished, it was exactly the opposite of my impressions on the subject. An inverted pyramite, and getting higher.. versus the scene in my head: a wast meadow, and life is sort of homogenous! Anyway... I wrote this (post) just to stress the "the nature of identity" play that happened. |
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Post by zin on Feb 15, 2015 7:59:26 GMT -5
Yes, I wrote somewhat in the last post, I hadn't understood self-identification well. Here I am not thinking as "group's interests versus individual's interests", my thought is more about lightening the pressure of focus-on-self by interaction with nature and with others as brothers (not as rivals). There may be something to it, and living more simply and close to nature. Though I can also see how loyalty to the tribe can mean aggression toward outsiders. Any small town in Texas can clarify that dynamic.  My distorted conclusion: Maybe self-identification is a civil thing |
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Post by netisolomon on Feb 15, 2015 16:34:53 GMT -5
The data from the experiments of Libet and others can be re-purposed to serve other conclusions. Daniel Dennett argues that no clear conclusion about volition can be derived from Libet's experiment because of inconsistent measurement technique in the timings of the different events involved. The readiness potential is identified objectively, using electrodes, but defining the point of conscious decision is based on subjective input. In any event, I believe the neuro-scientific proof is only part of the story that is so well expressed by Susan Blackmore and also Sam Harris. When I let go of my sense of separation, I realize that my attempts to exert control over the events and patterns in my world are ultimately futile – that what must happen will happen - at the behest of the Universe - despite my resistance, desires, aversions and interference. And in this acceptance, something inside me shifts. I truly recognize that the physical body and the vaporous thoughts that crowd my mind are just patterns of molecules in the movement of the cosmos. They are no more unique to me than the air in my lungs is. They have existed since the beginning of the Universe. The body-mind that is James is just a fleeting manifestation and no more than a vehicle for the eternal essence to experience itself. The events, pleasures, calamities and dramas that define the body-mind I call James, cannot be controlled by James. He is part of the inexorable flow, a cascade of phenomena initiated in the first breath of the Universe. This view is closer to the teachings of Advaita and more succinctly expressed by Nisargadatta Maharaj in I AM THAT. If you prefer a more scientific explanation, the idea of a deterministic Universe is pretty compelling. I like the example of parallel universes to help understand this. Imagine that there is an identical you in another identical universe. Every event that has happened in this universe is exactly mirrored. Could or would the parallel you be doing anything different right now? If so, how? Randomness, Divine intervention? If so, you still couldn’t control it so still no free will is proven. You may argue that faced with the same choice on several occasions your own free will may waver between different options and with no external prompting, your choice could change at any time purely on the basis of your own inner resolve. This however, reduces our choice to no more than a dice-roll in neuro-transmission. For me, it’s a pretty foolproof thought experiment.  JS notthisnotthis.net |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 15, 2015 16:59:42 GMT -5
Freewill/volition, and the absence thereof, exist in equal proportion, each invoked by the intent of the experiencer..
Information, as in the data collected from neuro-scientific experiments, can be arranged to suit a current agenda without the openmindedness to reserve judgment and attachment..
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 13:04:28 GMT -5
The data from the experiments of Libet and others can be re-purposed to serve other conclusions. Daniel Dennett argues that no clear conclusion about volition can be derived from Libet's experiment because of inconsistent measurement technique in the timings of the different events involved. The readiness potential is identified objectively, using electrodes, but defining the point of conscious decision is based on subjective input. In any event, I believe the neuro-scientific proof is only part of the story that is so well expressed by Susan Blackmore and also Sam Harris. When I let go of my sense of separation, I realize that my attempts to exert control over the events and patterns in my world are ultimately futile – that what must happen will happen - at the behest of the Universe - despite my resistance, desires, aversions and interference. And in this acceptance, something inside me shifts. I truly recognize that the physical body and the vaporous thoughts that crowd my mind are just patterns of molecules in the movement of the cosmos. They are no more unique to me than the air in my lungs is. They have existed since the beginning of the Universe. The body-mind that is James is just a fleeting manifestation and no more than a vehicle for the eternal essence to experience itself. The events, pleasures, calamities and dramas that define the body-mind I call James, cannot be controlled by James. He is part of the inexorable flow, a cascade of phenomena initiated in the first breath of the Universe. This view is closer to the teachings of Advaita and more succinctly expressed by Nisargadatta Maharaj in I AM THAT. If you prefer a more scientific explanation, the idea of a deterministic Universe is pretty compelling. I like the example of parallel universes to help understand this. Imagine that there is an identical you in another identical universe. Every event that has happened in this universe is exactly mirrored. Could or would the parallel you be doing anything different right now? If so, how? Randomness, Divine intervention? If so, you still couldn’t control it so still no free will is proven. You may argue that faced with the same choice on several occasions your own free will may waver between different options and with no external prompting, your choice could change at any time purely on the basis of your own inner resolve. This however, reduces our choice to no more than a dice-roll in neuro-transmission. For me, it’s a pretty foolproof thought experiment. JS notthisnotthis.netExcellent James -- thank you for that experiment. It is very good and I can't believe I haven't run up on it before. |
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Post by silver on Apr 2, 2015 10:06:00 GMT -5
The data from the experiments of Libet and others can be re-purposed to serve other conclusions. Daniel Dennett argues that no clear conclusion about volition can be derived from Libet's experiment because of inconsistent measurement technique in the timings of the different events involved. The readiness potential is identified objectively, using electrodes, but defining the point of conscious decision is based on subjective input. In any event, I believe the neuro-scientific proof is only part of the story that is so well expressed by Susan Blackmore and also Sam Harris. When I let go of my sense of separation, I realize that my attempts to exert control over the events and patterns in my world are ultimately futile – that what must happen will happen - at the behest of the Universe - despite my resistance, desires, aversions and interference. And in this acceptance, something inside me shifts. I truly recognize that the physical body and the vaporous thoughts that crowd my mind are just patterns of molecules in the movement of the cosmos. They are no more unique to me than the air in my lungs is. They have existed since the beginning of the Universe. The body-mind that is James is just a fleeting manifestation and no more than a vehicle for the eternal essence to experience itself. The events, pleasures, calamities and dramas that define the body-mind I call James, cannot be controlled by James. He is part of the inexorable flow, a cascade of phenomena initiated in the first breath of the Universe. This view is closer to the teachings of Advaita and more succinctly expressed by Nisargadatta Maharaj in I AM THAT. If you prefer a more scientific explanation, the idea of a deterministic Universe is pretty compelling. I like the example of parallel universes to help understand this. Imagine that there is an identical you in another identical universe. Every event that has happened in this universe is exactly mirrored. Could or would the parallel you be doing anything different right now? If so, how? Randomness, Divine intervention? If so, you still couldn’t control it so still no free will is proven. You may argue that faced with the same choice on several occasions your own free will may waver between different options and with no external prompting, your choice could change at any time purely on the basis of your own inner resolve. This however, reduces our choice to no more than a dice-roll in neuro-transmission. For me, it’s a pretty foolproof thought experiment. JS notthisnotthis.netI save some of the posts in my travels to my notes and this is one of them...makes me think. Ponder.  I feel there is something to that bit, "He is part of the inexorable flow, a cascade of phenomena initiated in the first breath of the Universe." But then, I also rez with what Tzu said: "Freewill/volition, and the absence thereof, exist in equal proportion, each invoked by the intent of the experiencer.." It makes me think that we are effecters like the wind effects - or is that affect? - all sorts of things - everything in our purview - so then, in this sense, we are far more powerful than we can imagine...we just need to guide our thoughts, feelings and actions and some do without knowing...therefore we make a mess of things - and THAT (or THIS as you're wont to think) is neither here nor there...foregone conclusion? Hmm. |
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Peeps always drone on and on about ascension and angels and 2012 and yadda yadda yadda and ignore the miracle right under their noses that we've haven't blown ourselves away already. For all they know "The Big Shift" happened back in November 1962. 
