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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2014 11:45:08 GMT -5
How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 11, 2014 12:05:13 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Your interpretation of what you're hearing on this forum seems far more pessimistic than is justified. From my POV, the entire universe, which is the real you, is conspiring to help you find the truth. If you resonate with the ATA pointer, then stop indulging in self pity, stop telling "your personal story," and shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you resonate with the traditional meditation pointer, then sit down and watch the breathing process. If you resonate with the koan-approach pointer, stop thinking and deeply contemplate whatever questions are bothering you. If you resonate with the "nothing to do" pointer, then contemplate what that phrase is pointing to. Here's a hint. At one time in my life I was consumed by dozens of existential questions, and I got into a deep state of angst while thinking about what appeared to be the meaninglessness of life. In the midst of that angst I entered the military, and during basic training I was kept on a dead run from one activity to the next. I had no time for reflecting about existential issues. Guess what? All of the angst that I had been feeling totally disappeared! It had been caused by incessant thought--by living in my head. All of this only became obvious much later. At the time I only knew that when I entered the military I was feeling depressed and nihilistic, but after several weeks of non-stop physical action and no time for reflective thought, I felt great! This is what Tolle is talking about when he discusses "freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." If you continue to endlessly indulge in self-centered "poor little me" type thinking, then I guarantee that you'll remain depressed and clueless concerning the big picture, existentially. I suggest getting some regular exercise and going for some long walks while looking at the world around you without imagining anything. Whether its informal ATA, or formal breath awareness, or mantra recitation, or koan contemplation, break the habit of spinning endlessly in reflective thought. Hell, if nothing else, go join the military! They will definitely get you out of your head. In all seriousness, I sometimes feel like a musician who once said, "I practiced playing my musical instrument for 10,000 hours over 20 years, and now people call me a natural genius." I did heavy-duty ATA and contemplation, and went on countless silent retreats for 15 years, and miraculously (ha ha) all of my existential questions were resolved. This is just a story, but it points to something beyond the story. You seem to think that no one cares about your situation and understanding, but why do you think this body/mind, among others, is compelled to ceaselessly write about these existential issues? It is YOU writing to YOU for YOU! There is no one else here. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2014 12:07:10 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Check out my NYT best seller "The Power of Futility".  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 12:55:20 GMT -5
Excellent post! Only go straight, and not know! To that bit in bold.....seems to me that if ya wanted to, one could simplify this whole thing down to a couple components..... What are you willing to get rid of?
And how much alert attention are you willing to focus in this moment.The more 'stuff' you get rid of, the easier this gets, and the less stuff, i.e. knowledge, understanding, ideas, truths, etc....the easier it is to see alertly, and clearly, residing in the empty perfection. All these ideas and philosophies are very cool, but other than turning the mind's attention to a different aspect of reality, they really don't 'advance' you anyplace at all....at best all these views and conceptualizations provide one with a fleeting period of satisfaction...but they also come with a great weight that you don't really notice until its gone. All these scientific/philosophical/existential thoughts may seem to lift one up, because they pull one out of the mud so to speak....but then they become a weight holding you to the ground, when you could just unload them, and float into the sky... For nearly everyone, the mind is focused on gaining something. In this sort of spiritual focus, it's really about losing; losing beliefs, illusions, resistance, fear, struggle and suffering. It can be very useful to recognize the value of losing. This is when effortlessness, absence and emptiness start to make sense. Yep If people looked for what they can get rid of, instead of looking for something to gain, the struggle that they insist on would be seen through much more easily. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 13:00:19 GMT -5
I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Your interpretation of what you're hearing on this forum seems far more pessimistic than is justified. From my POV, the entire universe, which is the real you, is conspiring to help you find the truth. If you resonate with the ATA pointer, then stop indulging in self pity, stop telling "your personal story," and shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you resonate with the traditional meditation pointer, then sit down and watch the breathing process. If you resonate with the koan-approach pointer, stop thinking and deeply contemplate whatever questions are bothering you. If you resonate with the "nothing to do" pointer, then contemplate what that phrase is pointing to. Here's a hint. At one time in my life I was consumed by dozens of existential questions, and I got into a deep state of angst while thinking about what appeared to be the meaninglessness of life. In the midst of that angst I entered the military, and during basic training I was kept on a dead run from one activity to the next. I had no time for reflecting about existential issues. Guess what? All of the angst that I had been feeling totally disappeared! It had been caused by incessant thought--by living in my head. All of this only became obvious much later. At the time I only knew that when I entered the military I was feeling depressed and nihilistic, but after several weeks of non-stop physical action and no time for reflective thought, I felt great! This is what Tolle is talking about when he discusses "freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." If you continue to endlessly indulge in self-centered "poor little me" type thinking, then I guarantee that you'll remain depressed and clueless concerning the big picture, existentially. I suggest getting some regular exercise and going for some long walks while looking at the world around you without imagining anything. Whether its informal ATA, or formal breath awareness, or mantra recitation, or koan contemplation, break the habit of spinning endlessly in reflective thought. Hell, if nothing else, go join the military! They will definitely get you out of your head. In all seriousness, I sometimes feel like a musician who once said, "I practiced playing my musical instrument for 10,000 hours over 20 years, and now people call me a natural genius." I did heavy-duty ATA and contemplation, and went on countless silent retreats for 15 years, and miraculously (ha ha) all of my existential questions were resolved. This is just a story, but it points to something beyond the story. You seem to think that no one cares about your situation and understanding, but why do you think this body/mind, among others, is compelled to ceaselessly write about these existential issues? It is YOU writing to YOU for YOU! There is no one else here. SDP....its really as simple as that bit I bolded and underlined above....what are you giving attention to? What are you feeding? Where and how you place your attention is everything in this game ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 13:16:44 GMT -5
I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Check out my NYT best seller "The Power of Futility". Is there a Cliff's Notes for that yet? Or maybe Futility for Absolute Idiots? How 'bout a comicbook version ...er, graphic novel? Sheesh mebbe I'll just wait for the movie. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 11, 2014 14:39:37 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp What I said was that ego wasn't simply data but seemed to me more of a process -- patterns of reactivity. I didn't say that ego was what we are. In my experience these patterns didn't go away permanently by looking inside and finding noone home, but what seems to happen over time is that the patterns are noticed as they are expressed, whereas before, when I took myself to be what appeared to me (story, narrative, situation, body), if the patterns of reactivity ever were noticed it was only in extreme situations and the noticing was of a different nature and didn't involve what appears to be an ongoing process of disidentification. None of this change effects something that's been constant and at once very subtle and yet profoundly pervading and underlying all experience, really since even before seeing the fallacy of "me". That constant something is what Tolle calls "being", Niz "I am" and what is referred to around here sometimes as "existence". As I've said before, the primary difference between the point in time where the noticing first started happening and experience prior-to that is the distinct absence of existential dread. It's as if the feeling that I used to treasure from taking in a lake from the shore, a skyline from a roof or the rush of wind racing down a hill on ski's .. as if that's always sort of "here" now, always. You're right, none of the data is what we are, and you can feel that consciously and very deeply in any instant, while it seems to get obscured when one of the patterns is playing itself out. I've really got nothing to say about this metaphor about watching people drown.  Said this before very recently -- the question of who or what notices is where insight ends and devotion begins. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2014 16:42:19 GMT -5
For nearly everyone, the mind is focused on gaining something. In this sort of spiritual focus, it's really about losing; losing beliefs, illusions, resistance, fear, struggle and suffering. It can be very useful to recognize the value of losing. This is when effortlessness, absence and emptiness start to make sense. Yep If people looked for what they can get rid of, instead of looking for something to gain, the struggle that they insist on would be seen through much more easily. Yep Mind is greedy. It never wants to lose anything. The idea that one can be happier with less doesn't register, and I suspect it's because we would have to admit that we caused the problem with our solutions to begin with. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2014 16:46:33 GMT -5
Check out my NYT best seller "The Power of Futility". Is there a Cliff's Notes for that yet? Or maybe Futility for Absolute Idiots? How 'bout a comicbook version ...er, graphic novel? Sheesh mebbe I'll just wait for the movie. Ooooo, comic book sounds like a plan.  |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 11, 2014 21:42:21 GMT -5
Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden.That is 'your' understanding of the situation.. it is not 'the' situation, it is not what is actually happening.. What is actually happening, happens regardless of what you think about it.. you don't know you are not separate, you do know that's the way you want to describe your personal understanding.. you don't know you're "not a mind/body, not volitional", you do know that's how you choose to describe your personal understanding.. in the same way you accuse people of making-up what you say they are not, you are also making-up what you are saying about those people.. In the on-going experience of 'now', there is the actual happening, and there is the mind's description of the happening.. as the description emerges from the mindscape's processes, 'now' is still happening, but.. the experiencer's awareness of the happening is distorted by the mind's processes applying its understandings/descriptions to what 'has already happened' while what 'is happening' happens.. then, the experiencer becomes attached to what was happening in their mindscape, believing that that was what was happening, when what was actually happening was distorted and disguised by the active mind's processes and attachments.. Believers, like non-dualists, Advaitists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Zennists, Taoists, etc.. are shaping their experiences through the lenses of their beliefs.. unwilling to let go and see/experience what is actually happening, the certainty of this is evident in the insistence that their attachment is right/true/truth, while resisting information that does not agree with their attachments.. coming empty to the discussion, returning to neutral, seems disempowering to those that haven't been there, but it is liberation.. it is freedom from pretending you have the answers that aren't even there, freedom from pretending your theories are better than other people's theories.. letting it all go, what you believe, what you know, your hopes, dreams and fears, is the freedom to see what is actually happening, and the clarity to let that go, too.. There is a middle way, not insisting or resisting, just paying attention to what is happening.. sharing the happening without the attachments and beliefs 'about' the happening.. without the attachment to converting others to your personal beliefs 'about' your personal experiences.. a genuine participation in discussions without plotting ways to advance your beliefs through an activist agenda of provocation and intimidation masqueraded as pseudo-psychotherapy.. the liberated person is not concerned with right/wrong, beliefs/attachments/theories/realizations, etc.. having experienced freedom and the clarity it reveals, there is only the interest that others have the same opportunity.. There is a middle way, neither past nor future.. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2014 23:29:49 GMT -5
I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp What I said was that ego wasn't simply data but seemed to me more of a process -- patterns of reactivity. I didn't say that ego was what we are. In my experience these patterns didn't go away permanently by looking inside and finding noone home, but what seems to happen over time is that the patterns are noticed as they are expressed, whereas before, when I took myself to be what appeared to me (story, narrative, situation, body), if the patterns of reactivity ever were noticed it was only in extreme situations and the noticing was of a different nature and didn't involve what appears to be an ongoing process of disidentification. None of this change effects something that's been constant and at once very subtle and yet profoundly pervading and underlying all experience, really since even before seeing the fallacy of "me". That constant something is what Tolle calls "being", Niz "I am" and what is referred to around here sometimes as "existence". As I've said before, the primary difference between the point in time where the noticing first started happening and experience prior-to that is the distinct absence of existential dread. It's as if the feeling that I used to treasure from taking in a lake from the shore, a skyline from a roof or the rush of wind racing down a hill on ski's .. as if that's always sort of "here" now, always. You're right, none of the data is what we are, and you can feel that consciously and very deeply in any instant, while it seems to get obscured when one of the patterns is playing itself out. I've really got nothing to say about this metaphor about watching people drown. Said this before very recently -- the question of who or what notices is where insight ends and devotion begins. I get that laughter.....very nice....... sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 12, 2014 0:18:24 GMT -5
I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Your interpretation of what you're hearing on this forum seems far more pessimistic than is justified. From my POV, the entire universe, which is the real you, is conspiring to help you find the truth. If you resonate with the ATA pointer, then stop indulging in self pity, stop telling "your personal story," and shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you resonate with the traditional meditation pointer, then sit down and watch the breathing process. If you resonate with the koan-approach pointer, stop thinking and deeply contemplate whatever questions are bothering you. If you resonate with the "nothing to do" pointer, then contemplate what that phrase is pointing to. Here's a hint. At one time in my life I was consumed by dozens of existential questions, and I got into a deep state of angst while thinking about what appeared to be the meaninglessness of life. In the midst of that angst I entered the military, and during basic training I was kept on a dead run from one activity to the next. I had no time for reflecting about existential issues. Guess what? All of the angst that I had been feeling totally disappeared! It had been caused by incessant thought--by living in my head. All of this only became obvious much later. At the time I only knew that when I entered the military I was feeling depressed and nihilistic, but after several weeks of non-stop physical action and no time for reflective thought, I felt great! This is what Tolle is talking about when he discusses "freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." If you continue to endlessly indulge in self-centered "poor little me" type thinking, then I guarantee that you'll remain depressed and clueless concerning the big picture, existentially. I suggest getting some regular exercise and going for some long walks while looking at the world around you without imagining anything. Whether its informal ATA, or formal breath awareness, or mantra recitation, or koan contemplation, break the habit of spinning endlessly in reflective thought. Hell, if nothing else, go join the military! They will definitely get you out of your head. In all seriousness, I sometimes feel like a musician who once said, "I practiced playing my musical instrument for 10,000 hours over 20 years, and now people call me a natural genius." I did heavy-duty ATA and contemplation, and went on countless silent retreats for 15 years, and miraculously (ha ha) all of my existential questions were resolved. This is just a story, but it points to something beyond the story. You seem to think that no one cares about your situation and understanding, but why do you think this body/mind, among others, is compelled to ceaselessly write about these existential issues? It is YOU writing to YOU for YOU! There is no one else here. Thanks zd. That's something I could have used 37 years 10 & 1/2 months ago. I have always respected what you post here more than that of anybody else here, nothing has changed that. I got my metaphorical ass kicked just that many years ago.......to the tune of....sort of, "You are a worthless nothing....nothing you think or feel or do is of any ultimate value.....but you can drop that, cease to be identified with that, and find what is of supreme value".......that over a period of some months, then....... I just post stuff.....here. Most of it is hypothetical......in the post above I wasn't speaking about myself.....sorry I got you worked up....although I figure it as compassion...not malice. When I say hypothetical I don't mean insincere, what I post is how I see things, people and their relationship to the universe. I would consider it a waste of time to do otherwise. When I said "new people" I meant new people....not me.... I think non-dual "teaching", in general, is pessimistic, so you are probably dead-on in what you write.....have picked up...pessimistic in the sense of not offering....more.......real.......guidance.....training wheels....?......but anyone else who just happened to drop by would have answer that.......what kind of help they get here.......I keep pushing, here, because a lot of what gets posted by others doesn't fit my experience.....that's mostly the kind of stuff I try to point to........ I didn't think I was exuding so much existential angst.....but I do remember what it was like.....and I have written about it stating it was 38+ years ago.....posting here...on occasion, about that time, always indicating that was then...... One thing I did 38+ years ago to take a break from the incessant mind/emotional-existential-chatter was to just watch my legs while ice skating......it was a nice break...shutting the mind off...a necessary break.....then I learned other stuff....subsequently......... BTW.....I stumbled upon your first book in a used bookstore some years ago...read it...liked it.. catchy title......that was before I encountered you here.....I really seriously considered going to Claymont when you were there for TAT....sorry I didn't go.... sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 5:48:53 GMT -5
If you go back you'll see that zd was referring to my previous post, a quote.....(he quoted a quote), a clarification, extrapolation, apt. However, if you hadn't noticed, zd's posts are usually impersonal, just for anybody and everybody.....nobody.......to whom it may concern....... sdp Hi SDP: are you suggesting that blanket generality should be immune from scrutiny? There is clarity, born of a still mind's awareness, and there is the Spiritual Circus of story-tellers and hawkers.. the still-minded awareness is alert, alive, and authentic.. the Circus is bright lights and noise, illusion and confusion..
is that Columbus is back already with stories and treasures, while TZU is still discussing wether the boat is seaworthy, floating in his own dingy in the doldrums, getting upset everytime somebody makes waves, endlessly exclaiming that ´´the ocean is big, the sky is blue and water is wet´´---how profound,
TZU i KNOW that place where you are, (or where you once were) I met you there several times on my journeys across the infinite,remember? at first i thought ´´hey a fellow traveler´´--´´he sits in the doldrums enjoying the blue skies--good for him´´, but then i discovered that he isnt going anywhere at all, and actually is afraid of the water, the wind and the sky changing the slightest hue or ripple...brrrr
tzu thinks that his ´´one size fits all´´ approach will actually make SDP get an answer to his question..that is rather pathetic, and typical of fake , spiritually impotent Guru types like Brother Tzu, who are afraid to get out onto the real sea, stormy weather and all, and have some fun and adventure, to actually LIVE LIFE, and --or create something--in line with what is happening all the time---CREATION
there are many ways SDP can get an answer, tzu´s ´´way´´ may take him 25 years of steady practice, he´ll end up in the doldrums with tzu.Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and you can still get to that quiet place whenever you want...
SDP ,´(i havent read the whole thread) maybe try asking this deep sincere question before you go to sleep for a week or two or three---you will be astounded, life will present you with an answer in a way i cannot, nobody can, predict.
if india had kept following TZU´s (and ZD,E, Empty and some others here i gather) (shankara, buddha) advice it would still be as lethargic as it was 100 years ago, and all the beautiful and ugly creations you use, like cars and computers, would never even have been invented, because it is all an illusion anyways---
have a nice
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 12, 2014 6:23:48 GMT -5
Hi SDP: are you suggesting that blanket generality should be immune from scrutiny? There is clarity, born of a still mind's awareness, and there is the Spiritual Circus of story-tellers and hawkers.. the still-minded awareness is alert, alive, and authentic.. the Circus is bright lights and noise, illusion and confusion..
is that Columbus is back already with stories and treasures, while TZU is still discussing wether the boat is seaworthy, floating in his own dingy in the doldrums, getting upset everytime somebody makes waves, endlessly exclaiming that ´´the ocean is big, the sky is blue and water is wet´´---how profound,
TZU i KNOW that place where you are, (or where you once were) I met you there several times on my journeys across the infinite,remember? at first i thought ´´hey a fellow traveler´´--´´he sits in the doldrums enjoying the blue skies--good for him´´, but then i discovered that he isnt going anywhere at all, and actually is afraid of the water, the wind and the sky changing the slightest hue or ripple...brrrr
tzu thinks that his ´´one size fits all´´ approach will actually make SDP get an answer to his question..that is rather pathetic, and typical of fake , spiritually impotent Guru types like Brother Tzu, who are afraid to get out onto the real sea, stormy weather and all, and have some fun and adventure, to actually LIVE LIFE, and --or create something--in line with what is happening all the time---CREATION
there are many ways SDP can get an answer, tzu´s ´´way´´ may take him 25 years of steady practice, he´ll end up in the doldrums with tzu.Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and you can still get to that quiet place whenever you want...
SDP ,´(i havent read the whole thread) maybe try asking this deep sincere question before you go to sleep for a week or two or three---you will be astounded, life will present you with an answer in a way i cannot, nobody can, predict.
if india had kept following TZU´s (and ZD,E, Empty and some others here i gather) (shankara, buddha) advice it would still be as lethargic as it was 100 years ago, and all the beautiful and ugly creations you use, like cars and computers, would never even have been invented, because it is all an illusion anyways---
have a nice
Can't see past your beliefs... really after that 'Tzu' illusion, aren't you?.. you're stuck, let it go.. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 6:58:45 GMT -5
what The Great Guru Tzu hasnt caught onto yet
is that Columbus is back already with stories and treasures, while TZU is still discussing wether the boat is seaworthy, floating in his own dingy in the doldrums, getting upset everytime somebody makes waves, endlessly exclaiming that ´´the ocean is big, the sky is blue and water is wet´´---how profound,
TZU i KNOW that place where you are, (or where you once were) I met you there several times on my journeys across the infinite,remember? at first i thought ´´hey a fellow traveler´´--´´he sits in the doldrums enjoying the blue skies--good for him´´, but then i discovered that he isnt going anywhere at all, and actually is afraid of the water, the wind and the sky changing the slightest hue or ripple...brrrr
tzu thinks that his ´´one size fits all´´ approach will actually make SDP get an answer to his question..that is rather pathetic, and typical of fake , spiritually impotent Guru types like Brother Tzu, who are afraid to get out onto the real sea, stormy weather and all, and have some fun and adventure, to actually LIVE LIFE, and --or create something--in line with what is happening all the time---CREATION
there are many ways SDP can get an answer, tzu´s ´´way´´ may take him 25 years of steady practice, he´ll end up in the doldrums with tzu.Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and you can still get to that quiet place whenever you want...
SDP ,´(i havent read the whole thread) maybe try asking this deep sincere question before you go to sleep for a week or two or three---you will be astounded, life will present you with an answer in a way i cannot, nobody can, predict.
if india had kept following TZU´s (and ZD,E, Empty and some others here i gather) (shankara, buddha) advice it would still be as lethargic as it was 100 years ago, and all the beautiful and ugly creations you use, like cars and computers, would never even have been invented, because it is all an illusion anyways---
have a nice
Can't see past your beliefs... really after that 'Tzu' illusion, aren't you?.. you're stuck, let it go..
that is actually where the power to create comes from in the first place
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