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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 21:46:31 GMT -5
Eggzakly. It's seen that the effort to gain control over the body in spite of the efforts of the puppeteer was not ultimately required because there was no puppeteer, though it may seem that way and effort may be expended. The other way I can stretch this analogy is to say that - even when the strings are recognized to have never existed, I'll bet it's still hard to walk at first. Might involve a lot of falling and flailing around.  How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 3:00:09 GMT -5
Excellent post zd. Here is one way to look at it. Enormous energy is stored in ego, stored in the neural structure of the brain. This is how society runs, culture, countries. Countries go to war over how individuals value the information stored in ego. The neural structure is what determines our interests, what directs our attention, what takes our attention. All the energy that comes in-to us goes to reinforce the life of these neural pathways. Likewise, any pseudo spiritual effort by ego merely strengthens ego. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called this spiritual materialism in his most excellent book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. All genuine interior spiritual practices are about living again through pure Awareness instead of ego, about not-living through the dictates of ego via the information stored in the neural structure. To do this is to cease to give energy to these neural structures, you cease to feed ego, literally. What happens to anything if you cease to feed it? Eventually, it collapses. Krishnamurti talked about the brain cells changing at least back to the '70's long before what neuroscientists now call neuroplasticity. sdp ZD's (and yours) description is very scientifically oriented, and it's one way of looking at it, but it's really just a story about how consciousness is expressing. Ego is consciousness (or awareness) identifying with the mind/body, and as such everything is about making things better for it. Neural pathways are just an expression of that desire born of self delusion, and that desire has to change. In the experiment about seeing the world upside down, the way most will likely experience it is that it's interesting and challenging for a while, and then annoying, then really annoying. At that point, a solution is sought, and found. Talking about it as though it's a matter of rewiring neural pathways denies the entire emotional dynamic that seeks a solution to the problem. Spiritual seeking is much the same, as Quinn described. Often there is frustration and surrender, or a willingness to see what's really going on that wasn't there before, born out of fatigue, depression, curiosity, whatever.All of this can take time to arise, but not necessarily so. Only because of interest in this apparent process, and so I say lets not set it in concrete. Let's not forget to mention that NONE of it is actually required. Excellent post! Only go straight, and not know! To that bit in bold.....seems to me that if ya wanted to, one could simplify this whole thing down to a couple components..... What are you willing to get rid of? And how much alert attention are you willing to focus in this moment. The more 'stuff' you get rid of, the easier this gets, and the less stuff, i.e. knowledge, understanding, ideas, truths, etc....the easier it is to see alertly, and clearly, residing in the empty perfection. All these ideas and philosophies are very cool, but other than turning the mind's attention to a different aspect of reality, they really don't 'advance' you anyplace at all....at best all these views and conceptualizations provide one with a fleeting period of satisfaction...but they also come with a great weight that you don't really notice until its gone. All these scientific/philosophical/existential thoughts may seem to lift one up, because they pull one out of the mud so to speak....but then they become a weight holding you to the ground, when you could just unload them, and float into the sky... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 3:05:56 GMT -5
SDP.....just to clarify....In that last post, I am not saying one should give up effort, I saying one should give up the results of effort, both 'achieved' and hoped for.
'Achieved' is already dead, and 'hoped for' is just an imagining of a possible future....Everything thats worth anything significant, is right here, in the alive land between remembered past, and imagined future.
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Post by quinn on Feb 11, 2014 6:36:13 GMT -5
What about effort to see what exactly the nature of these strings is?The other way I can stretch this analogy is to say that - even when the strings are recognized to have never existed, I'll bet it's still hard to walk at first. Might involve a lot of falling and flailing around. How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 11, 2014 6:59:23 GMT -5
SDP.....just to clarify....In that last post, I am not saying one should give up effort, I saying one should give up the results of effort, both 'achieved' and hoped for. 'Achieved' is already dead, and 'hoped for' is just an imagining of a possible future....Everything thats worth anything significant, is right here, in the alive land between remembered past, and imagined future. And.. with the clarity of your awareness, it's no longer effort.. it's the 'way' you are.. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 7:09:46 GMT -5
How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. The effort involved with not wanting to hide the immediate and deeply present, lives in the same house as the immediate and deeply present. |
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Post by quinn on Feb 11, 2014 7:32:12 GMT -5
Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. The effort involved with not wanting to hide the immediate and deeply present, lives in the same house as the immediate and deeply present. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2014 8:46:41 GMT -5
For most people ego becomes their default position (mountains are mountains). Then there is the search, the journey, the erroneous effort, the in-between state, (mountains are no longer mountains), movement from the lines back and forth to the white paper. Then, Awareness becomes the default position, effortless Awareness (mountains are once again mountains), as you say, "the natural functioning of a unified field of being". Lines are still there as memory of who one used to be, but not as an obstruction, the gears are no longer engaged, not dragging one back into trinkets...... sdp It is time to leave cartography college, sdp. It's a "You can lead a horse to water" thing. .........a "finger pointing to the moon" thing......trying to conceptualize what can't be conceptualized........ sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 8:55:37 GMT -5
It is time to leave cartography college, sdp. It's a "You can lead a horse to water" thing. .........a "finger pointing to the moon" thing......trying to conceptualize what can't be conceptualized........ sdp Yes, clearly. And therefore your signature is the antithesis of what your actually trying to do.. (As in, the Chuang Tzu quote) |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2014 8:57:10 GMT -5
If you go back you'll see that zd was referring to my previous post, a quote.....(he quoted a quote), a clarification, extrapolation, apt. However, if you hadn't noticed, zd's posts are usually impersonal, just for anybody and everybody.....nobody.......to whom it may concern....... sdp Hi SDP: are you suggesting that blanket generality should be immune from scrutiny? There is clarity, born of a still mind's awareness, and there is the Spiritual Circus of story-tellers and hawkers.. the still-minded awareness is alert, alive, and authentic.. the Circus is bright lights and noise, illusion and confusion.. No, everybody is open to scrutiny. Basically, you hold up a mirror......that's really all you can do......... sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2014 9:03:22 GMT -5
It's a "You can lead a horse to water" thing. .........a "finger pointing to the moon" thing......trying to conceptualize what can't be conceptualized........ sdp Yes, clearly. And therefore your signature is the antithesis of what your actually trying to do.. (As in, the Chuang Tzu quote) So what do you do when you find the man who has forgotten words? Sit in silence? ...........The quote says, That's who I would like to talk to. sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 9:09:00 GMT -5
Yes, clearly. And therefore your signature is the antithesis of what your actually trying to do.. (As in, the Chuang Tzu quote) So what do you do when you find the man who has forgotten words? Sit in silence? ...........The quote says, That's who I would like to talk to. sdp If there was anything to say then it would be said. Once past that yes enjoying the view together would probably be all.. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 11, 2014 9:41:31 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 9:51:01 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even thought it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp I hear some saying that you can breathe water, so don't fret. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 11, 2014 11:27:41 GMT -5
ZD's (and yours) description is very scientifically oriented, and it's one way of looking at it, but it's really just a story about how consciousness is expressing. Ego is consciousness (or awareness) identifying with the mind/body, and as such everything is about making things better for it. Neural pathways are just an expression of that desire born of self delusion, and that desire has to change. In the experiment about seeing the world upside down, the way most will likely experience it is that it's interesting and challenging for a while, and then annoying, then really annoying. At that point, a solution is sought, and found. Talking about it as though it's a matter of rewiring neural pathways denies the entire emotional dynamic that seeks a solution to the problem. Spiritual seeking is much the same, as Quinn described. Often there is frustration and surrender, or a willingness to see what's really going on that wasn't there before, born out of fatigue, depression, curiosity, whatever.All of this can take time to arise, but not necessarily so. Only because of interest in this apparent process, and so I say lets not set it in concrete. Let's not forget to mention that NONE of it is actually required. Excellent post! Only go straight, and not know! To that bit in bold.....seems to me that if ya wanted to, one could simplify this whole thing down to a couple components..... What are you willing to get rid of?
And how much alert attention are you willing to focus in this moment.The more 'stuff' you get rid of, the easier this gets, and the less stuff, i.e. knowledge, understanding, ideas, truths, etc....the easier it is to see alertly, and clearly, residing in the empty perfection. All these ideas and philosophies are very cool, but other than turning the mind's attention to a different aspect of reality, they really don't 'advance' you anyplace at all....at best all these views and conceptualizations provide one with a fleeting period of satisfaction...but they also come with a great weight that you don't really notice until its gone. All these scientific/philosophical/existential thoughts may seem to lift one up, because they pull one out of the mud so to speak....but then they become a weight holding you to the ground, when you could just unload them, and float into the sky... For nearly everyone, the mind is focused on gaining something. In this sort of spiritual focus, it's really about losing; losing beliefs, illusions, resistance, fear, struggle and suffering. It can be very useful to recognize the value of losing. This is when effortlessness, absence and emptiness start to make sense. |
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