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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 15:37:15 GMT -5
"So how to get mind to lose interest in everything?" This is not easy to answer. Have you ever walked through a mall and seen all the different kinds of stores? Some stores sell stuff that is just obviously crap....you wonder how they stay in business. There are stores to fit every type of personality, sports stuff, team stuff, books & music stuff.......diamonds and jewelry.... Eventually you just see that it's all just crap....trinkets... All you really need is enough food to get you through every day, clothes enough to keep you warm and out of jail (if your culture doesn't appreciate nudity....I guess most don't)........Andrews a safe place to sleep and warm enough to keep you from freezing....... If you haven't see that everything you can put your eyes on merely consists of trinkets, just keep collecting trinkets until you do see.....every material thing is worthless. But I'm pretty sure you're there. So, you are really asking, although I know the only thing of real value is Awareness, why does my mind keep going back to the trinkets?.....why does my mind keep thinking about the useless stuff? ...."When the mind stops thinking nothing happens". Almost everybody here says that ego is not a problem, it's just a part of all that is bla, bla, bla....ego is not real....ego is just an illusion...bla, bla, bla... You've never heard me say that. Go back to the OP. Your true nature is the pure Awareness you were born with....born as. All the lines on the white paper are the contents of the centers, the forebrain, the neo-cortex, the intellectual center, your emotional center and your learned bodily movements, habits of thought, feeling and actions, these constitute ego. All the contents of the centers are like a series of wheels, gears and pulleys, really merely a Rube Goldberg machine (google it)....much ado about nothing. Sensations enter us from the outside and activate the gears and pulleys, energy feeds the mechanism. Even when we have seen that life consists of one trinket after another, energy entering us still feeds the mechanism and we think and fell and do stuff we don't really.......value. That seems to be where you are, what you're asking. Why do these thoughts keep coming up? (are there still thoughts going on unconsciously?) Where I differ with others here is to say that we can take the energy that perpetuates ego, out of ego. Ego isn't just an illusion, it exists as information in the neural structure of the brain....very much alive.......it is living tissue. Normally, your awareness and your attention are pulled back into the programming of the mind/brain, stuff we think and feel and do. But we can live through our awareness and attention instead of through thoughts, feelings and actions. Doing this takes the energy out of the contents of the centers, it makes an inner separation between the pure white paper and the lines in the paper. It disengages the wheels, gears and pulleys of ego, eventually you cease being drawn back to the trinkets of life. You can have memory of >who-you-were<, but the strings have been cut.....you are free of the tyranny of little-self/ego. You value Awareness over anything else....... Everybody else here (well, I guess mostly zd, E and S/Empty, but everybody else too by abdication) seems to make this out as so easy and natural....effortless.... This has not been the case.. for me..... sdp Nor is it the case for me, and I wonder if some of the "free and easy" folks aren't just posturing. But, if they have some kind of absolution so be it. It might be time to start naming these folks.  |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 15:43:05 GMT -5
SDP: Good post, but I don't agree with your last line. I did not say that cutting the strings of ego and past thought habits is either easy or hard. I said that INITIALLY it SEEMS as if great effort is required to shift attention away from thoughts, but after seeing through the see-er, it becomes obvious that the idea of anyone having made an effort was an erroneous idea. Afterwards, everything is seen as the natural functioning of a unified field of being. Hey zd, Yes, I recall that's what you said. But I came back and asked again, even though in the end you came to see that "the idea that anyone having made an effort was an erroneous idea", was not the erroneous effort necessary (at least in your case and maybe 99% of other cases) to eventually see that the erroneous effort was not necessary? .......... I don't remember a reply from you after asking that....... I take the lines on the paper to be a sort of prison, even though our real nature as pure awareness is still uncorrupted as the pure white paper under the lines, we take ourselves to be the lines, we forget who we are (not that we are a who...just a manner of speaking). .........I guess realization would be the instantaneous seeing that we are not the lines but (are) uncorrupted Awareness (and I agree with E here that one has nothing to do with the other). ........... What I'm saying is that, in fact, the "effort" comes from the side of pure Awareness, not from ego, can never come from ego. .........The effort from ego is what is erroneous. The "effort" from Awareness appears to be effort from the side of 'still mostly living through ego', but is not really because it is our natural state. I don't know if that makes sense.....?........ For most people ego becomes their default position (mountains are mountains). Then there is the search, the journey, the erroneous effort, the in-between state, (mountains are no longer mountains), movement from the lines back and forth to the white paper. Then, Awareness becomes the default position, effortless Awareness (mountains are once again mountains), as you say, "the natural functioning of a unified field of being". Lines are still there as memory of who one used to be, but not as an obstruction, the gears are no longer engaged, not dragging one back into trinkets...... sdp "Pure awareness" doesn't do effort. All effort comes from ego wanting something that apparently isn't here. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 10, 2014 15:46:05 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding.
Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 16:06:07 GMT -5
For most people ego becomes their default position (mountains are mountains). Then there is the search, the journey, the erroneous effort, the in-between state, (mountains are no longer mountains), movement from the lines back and forth to the white paper. Then, Awareness becomes the default position, effortless Awareness (mountains are once again mountains), as you say, "the natural functioning of a unified field of being". Lines are still there as memory of who one used to be, but not as an obstruction, the gears are no longer engaged, not dragging one back into trinkets...... sdp It is time to leave cartography college, sdp. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 17:06:07 GMT -5
Nor is it the case for me, and I wonder if some of the "free and easy" folks aren't just posturing. But, if they have some kind of absolution so be it. It might be time to start naming these folks. Anyone who has claimed attainment of "reality" in ACIM parlance and told me I am too "unwilling" to get it. Names withheld. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 17:07:11 GMT -5
Good question. My speculation is that repetitive thinking gradually creates some kind of a neural structure or neural pathway in the brain, and it takes a certain amount of non-usage before the structure collapses or the neural pathway shifts. There have been various experiments that seem to support this kind of hypothesis. In the last century a psychologist created a special set of glasses that inverted the world that someone saw when wearing the glasses. After two or three weeks, the brain suddenly "learned"to shift the world upside down, and it was thereafter seen in that manner even when the glasses were removed (imagine looking around and seeing everything upside down!). The subjects in the experiment walked around for two or three more weeks without wearing the glasses while seeing everything upside down until, suddenly, everything shifted back to normal again! When attention is repeatedly shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), this activity apparently puts cumulative pressure upon the established neural pathway associated with reflective thought/imagination, until, suddenly, a shift occurs. This is what might be called a "gradual" path that leads to a sudden shift. The same sort of thing apparently happens when existential questions are contemplated deeply. The imaginatively-projected meta-world of the intellect eventually gives way to the deeper truths that underlie it. In the case of a person like Ramana, it may be that he was young and naturally non-reflective (hadn't practiced thinking as much as other people), so it didn't take much contemplation/self inquiry to become free of the intellect. Or, in his terminology, he may simply have been "a ripe soul." J. Krishnamurti as a child, according to what he told people later, spent hours and hours sitting by a lake simply looking and listening rather than daydreaming, and that activity may have prevented the neural pathway associated with imagination from becoming as deeply ingrained as most adults. Tolle's realization/experience was somewhat different, and he speculated that "the intense pressure of suffering that night must have forced my consciousness to withdraw from its identification with the unhappy and fearful self, which is ultimately a fiction of mind." Bottom line? The truth is unfathomably deep, but it is usually obscured by, in Tolle's words, "the compulsion of incessant thought." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to "what is," it may not appear that anything is happening, but people who have followed this path a significant distance generally do not agree with this conclusion. In fact, a great deal is happening, but it does not rise to the level of conscious recognition. Geologists have a machine for testing the elasticity of rocks. They place a rock in two steel jaws which begin to exert bending pressure on the rock. Depending upon the internal crystalline structure of the rock, it will gradually bend up to a certain point, and then suddenly snap into two pieces. The point of the snap is referred to as a "discontinuity." I suspect that just as different rocks break at different points depending upon their structure, the neural pathways of different humans shift at different points depending upon many different factors--age, intensity of desire to understand what's going on, past thinking habits, etc. This is all just speculation, but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis based upon the available evidence. Excellent post zd. Here is one way to look at it. Enormous energy is stored in ego, stored in the neural structure of the brain. This is how society runs, culture, countries. Countries go to war over how individuals value the information stored in ego. The neural structure is what determines our interests, what directs our attention, what takes our attention. All the energy that comes in-to us goes to reinforce the life of these neural pathways. Likewise, any pseudo spiritual effort by ego merely strengthens ego. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called this spiritual materialism in his most excellent book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. All genuine interior spiritual practices are about living again through pure Awareness instead of ego, about not-living through the dictates of ego via the information stored in the neural structure. To do this is to cease to give energy to these neural structures, you cease to feed ego, literally. What happens to anything if you cease to feed it? Eventually, it collapses. Krishnamurti talked about the brain cells changing at least back to the '70's long before what neuroscientists now call neuroplasticity. sdp ZD's (and yours) description is very scientifically oriented, and it's one way of looking at it, but it's really just a story about how consciousness is expressing. Ego is consciousness (or awareness) identifying with the mind/body, and as such everything is about making things better for it. Neural pathways are just an expression of that desire born of self delusion, and that desire has to change. In the experiment about seeing the world upside down, the way most will likely experience it is that it's interesting and challenging for a while, and then annoying, then really annoying. At that point, a solution is sought, and found. Talking about it as though it's a matter of rewiring neural pathways denies the entire emotional dynamic that seeks a solution to the problem. Spiritual seeking is much the same, as Quinn described. Often there is frustration and surrender, or a willingness to see what's really going on that wasn't there before, born out of fatigue, depression, curiosity, whatever. All of this can take time to arise, but not necessarily so. Only because of interest in this apparent process, and so I say lets not set it in concrete. Let's not forget to mention that NONE of it is actually required. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 17:11:10 GMT -5
Yes, and (and here's the catch 222 again) we lose interest in stuff that we realize isn't true, which is the reason for seeing through illusions to begin with. Might want to speak for yourself on that one, E. I don't find myself losing interest in stuff I realize isn't 'true' (or 'false', or any of that). All thought is illusion. Eventually, I suspect losing interest in all thought.Right, because you'll realize it isn't true. (illusion) |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 17:31:33 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. Eggzakly. It's seen that the effort to gain control over the body in spite of the efforts of the puppeteer was not ultimately required because there was no puppeteer, though it may seem that way and effort may be expended. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 17:36:29 GMT -5
It might be time to start naming these folks. Anyone who has claimed attainment of "reality" in ACIM parlance and told me I am too "unwilling" to get it. Names withheld. That's not the same as saying it's easy. Has anyone told you that? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 17:42:14 GMT -5
Anyone who has claimed attainment of "reality" in ACIM parlance and told me I am too "unwilling" to get it. Names withheld. That's not the same as saying it's easy. Has anyone told you that? You are correct.I am speaking from personal frustration, so my discernment isn't very sound. |
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Post by quinn on Feb 10, 2014 18:30:14 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. Eggzakly. It's seen that the effort to gain control over the body in spite of the efforts of the puppeteer was not ultimately required because there was no puppeteer, though it may seem that way and effort may be expended. What about effort to see what exactly the nature of these strings is? The other way I can stretch this analogy is to say that - even when the strings are recognized to have never existed, I'll bet it's still hard to walk at first. Might involve a lot of falling and flailing around.  |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 10, 2014 19:21:44 GMT -5
Why do you say this? and to whom? the illusion is making repetitive claims to those you say are not there.. Find the one who asks these questions, and the answers will become obvious. Great, more guru-speak.. i had hoped you had more willingness to explore what is happening.. It's easy to tell each other the stories you want to hear, rather than to examine the stories, the story-tellers, and the audience you pretend isn't really there.. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 19:46:34 GMT -5
That's not the same as saying it's easy. Has anyone told you that? You are correct.I am speaking from personal frustration, so my discernment isn't very sound. its hard....until its easy ;-) |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 10, 2014 20:27:13 GMT -5
Why do you say this? and to whom? the illusion is making repetitive claims to those you say are not there.. If you go back you'll see that zd was referring to my previous post, a quote.....(he quoted a quote), a clarification, extrapolation, apt. However, if you hadn't noticed, zd's posts are usually impersonal, just for anybody and everybody.....nobody.......to whom it may concern....... sdp Hi SDP: are you suggesting that blanket generality should be immune from scrutiny? There is clarity, born of a still mind's awareness, and there is the Spiritual Circus of story-tellers and hawkers.. the still-minded awareness is alert, alive, and authentic.. the Circus is bright lights and noise, illusion and confusion.. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 10, 2014 21:40:44 GMT -5
That's not the same as saying it's easy. Has anyone told you that? You are correct.I am speaking from personal frustration, so my discernment isn't very sound. Cool noticing. |
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