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Post by enigma on Feb 8, 2014 17:03:26 GMT -5
Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I thought you wanted doing suggestions? Don't worry, it's from an ancient sufi text, I think. I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. The answer is simple. You're interested in those things you keep getting sucked back into. You're also interested in trying to escape them. What now? Eggzakly. Effort is expended in both contradictory split-mind interests, and the solution can't be to add a third level of effort, but rather to cease the other two, leaving it, of course, effortless. |
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Post by silence on Feb 8, 2014 17:06:35 GMT -5
And.....I consider shifting attention away from any manifestation of ego, not happening without effort.......in my experience.....but it's an effort that ego cannot possibly make........but eventually, the effort becomes priceless...... Maybe on the other shore, one could say effortless.........?........... Does the butterfly look back at the caterpillar and say there was an illusion of selfhood? I'd say no....he sees process........ sdp You don't think what you call ego can be the motivation behind effortful shifting of attention? You might be very surprised. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 8, 2014 17:26:49 GMT -5
Understood, but E. is simply talking about this issue in a different way. Thirty years ago when this body/mind began shifting attention away from thoughts, again and again, day after day, it SEEMED as if enormous effort was being expended (by a person--"me") and that such effort was necessary for such shifting of attention to occur. It felt as if "I" was an entity "in here" making an effort to see the world ("out there") non-conceptually. As various existential questions were seen through, it felt as if "I" was an entity who was seeing through those questions. Only when Source saw through the illusion of selfhood did it become obvious that there was never a person doing anything and that all apparent past effort was an illusion. When E. writes that "nothing can be done," he is saying, in essence, that who you THINK you are cannot do anything because who you THINK you are is imaginary. Source, or Being, is the only actor on the stage. The cosmos, and that which witnesses the cosmos, is an undivided Whole. Non-dualism teachers do not encourage the idea of effort because it usually reinforces the idea that there is someone who can make an effort, and there isn't. IMO it is more efficacious to simply remind people that shifting attention away from thoughts is sufficient. If a thought arises, such as, "I must make a greater effort," the recognition of that thought is a reminder to shift attention away from either the thought of "I" or the thought of "effort" to what can be seen or heard here and now. Looking without touching is key. Thanks zd, I think what you have said is very clear.....except....maybe......what do you mean that "Source saw through the illusion of selfhood?" .......I'm reminded of "like a mosquito biting an iron bull". Wouldn't it, for Source, be the case that there never was an illusion of selfhood? And, was it not the case that "all apparent past effort" was necessary, for you (but maybe not for everyone)? .........I don't think the "iron bull" gives up so easily......... There is a great novel on Zen called The Ronin by William Dale Jennings, long story short (spoiling a good read...but not really). A very nasty Ronin goes on a rampage of killing and rape. One murder is of a monk, who, after being sliced in two halves tells the Ronin to be here, on this spot, one year from today (speaks to the Ronin before falling dead). Throughout the year the Ronin cannot forget what the monk said, decides to be there, on the appointed day. Another monk is there to meet the Ronin. Eventually, after the encounter, the Ronin becomes a holy man. Eventually, the Ronin finds a chore that simply needs to be done, the now holy (enlightened) Ronin decides to dig a tunnel through a mountain as a passageway to help people from making a long and arduous journey around the mountain. In the meantime, the child of one of the Ronin's rape and murder victims decides to devote his whole life to avenging his mother's rape and death. The son eventually finds a great master swordsman who will teach him, son grows up and becomes a swordsman who would be equal to the Ronin's skill. Son eventually finds the Ronin digging the tunnel, challenging him to a duel. The Ronin says that he will fight the Son, when the tunnel has been finished. The Son awaits patiently, at first. Eventually he begins to help the Ronin dig....as it will hasten the day of the duel. After a rather long period of time (don't recall exactly how long...it's been years since I read the book....but I want to says it's been years)...they break through the mountain, the job has been finished...so it seems. However, they have broken through...to another mountain...the intended passageway is not yet complete.... The novel ends with the Ronin walking away....(he is done, can't dig anymore, will not dig anymore. [Why?]. Son of the raped womam begins to implore him, we must finish to job!!!! Ronin just keeps walking away.......... A very cool little book.....but not for the faint of heart.....pretty violent in places...... ............... If one tries to help a caterpillar to become a butterfly by prying open a chrysalis, the 1/2 caterpillar 1/2 butterfly will simply die. For me, teaching that nothing can be done is prying open a chrysalis......or at least keeping a caterpillar from becoming a chrysalis...... And.....I consider shifting attention away from any manifestation of ego, not happening without effort.......in my experience.....but it's an effort that ego cannot possibly make........but eventually, the effort becomes priceless...... Maybe on the other shore, one could say effortless.........?........... I'd say no....he sees process........ sdp No, because the butterfly was, in fact, a caterpillar at one time. It was not an illusion. Maybe the problem is just with that analogy, and so lets try another. A man believes he is a rabbit, subsequently goes through therapy, and realizes he is a man. Does he look back on the rabbit and say that was an illusion? Yes. He was not a rabbit who became a man. At some point in the therapy would it be appropriate to tell the man that no matter what he does, he cannot become a man because he is already a man? It may be pointed out that all efforts to become a man are hopeless, that there is no effort required in order to be what he already is. You're right that it is not a prescription for accomplishing something, because whatever the rabbit would do would have to be wrong, but it is also not a recommendation to stay as a rabbit. It is not a prescription at all, it's a pointer pointing to his true nature as a man; that which he has always been from the start. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2014 18:41:01 GMT -5
Thanks zd, I think what you have said is very clear.....except....maybe......what do you mean that "Source saw through the illusion of selfhood?" .......I'm reminded of "like a mosquito biting an iron bull". Wouldn't it, for Source, be the case that there never was an illusion of selfhood? And, was it not the case that "all apparent past effort" was necessary, for you (but maybe not for everyone)? .........I don't think the "iron bull" gives up so easily......... There is a great novel on Zen called The Ronin by William Dale Jennings, long story short (spoiling a good read...but not really). A very nasty Ronin goes on a rampage of killing and rape. One murder is of a monk, who, after being sliced in two halves tells the Ronin to be here, on this spot, one year from today (speaks to the Ronin before falling dead). Throughout the year the Ronin cannot forget what the monk said, decides to be there, on the appointed day. Another monk is there to meet the Ronin. Eventually, after the encounter, the Ronin becomes a holy man. Eventually, the Ronin finds a chore that simply needs to be done, the now holy (enlightened) Ronin decides to dig a tunnel through a mountain as a passageway to help people from making a long and arduous journey around the mountain. In the meantime, the child of one of the Ronin's rape and murder victims decides to devote his whole life to avenging his mother's rape and death. The son eventually finds a great master swordsman who will teach him, son grows up and becomes a swordsman who would be equal to the Ronin's skill. Son eventually finds the Ronin digging the tunnel, challenging him to a duel. The Ronin says that he will fight the Son, when the tunnel has been finished. The Son awaits patiently, at first. Eventually he begins to help the Ronin dig....as it will hasten the day of the duel. After a rather long period of time (don't recall exactly how long...it's been years since I read the book....but I want to says it's been years)...they break through the mountain, the job has been finished...so it seems. However, they have broken through...to another mountain...the intended passageway is not yet complete.... The novel ends with the Ronin walking away....(he is done, can't dig anymore, will not dig anymore. [Why?]. Son of the raped womam begins to implore him, we must finish to job!!!! Ronin just keeps walking away.......... A very cool little book.....but not for the faint of heart.....pretty violent in places...... ............... If one tries to help a caterpillar to become a butterfly by prying open a chrysalis, the 1/2 caterpillar 1/2 butterfly will simply die. For me, teaching that nothing can be done is prying open a chrysalis......or at least keeping a caterpillar from becoming a chrysalis...... And.....I consider shifting attention away from any manifestation of ego, not happening without effort.......in my experience.....but it's an effort that ego cannot possibly make........but eventually, the effort becomes priceless...... Maybe on the other shore, one could say effortless.........?........... I'd say no....he sees process........ sdp No, because the butterfly was, in fact, a caterpillar at one time. It was not an illusion. Maybe the problem is just with that analogy, and so lets try another. A man believes he is a rabbit, subsequently goes through therapy, and realizes he is a man. Does he look back on the rabbit and say that was an illusion? Yes. He was not a rabbit who became a man. At some point in the therapy would it be appropriate to tell the man that no matter what he does, he cannot become a man because he is already a man? It may be pointed out that all efforts to become a man are hopeless, that there is no effort required in order to be what he already is. You're right that it is not a prescription for accomplishing something, because whatever the rabbit would do would have to be wrong, but it is also not a recommendation to stay as a rabbit. It is not a prescription at all, it's a pointer pointing to his true nature as a man; that which he has always been from the start. Exactly. Good analogy. As for the question about Source seeing, Source is what sees, acts, and is. Source sometimes imagines that it is a person, and Source sometimes sees through that imaginative illusion. Ramana calls Source "the Self." Same same. I never knew that the Ronin story was a novel; I only heard it as a short story. In the short story, the son of the woman works side by side with the Ronin until the tunnel is completed, but by that time he realizes that the Ronin has become a holy man, and all of the son's animosity is replaced by love. |
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Post by psychoslice on Feb 8, 2014 21:34:45 GMT -5
Our so called corrupted nature is nothing but an illusion, its not who we truly are, so as long as you believe you are your corrupted nature that is who you will continue to be. Find who you truly are and your illusion of who you think you are will diminish.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 9, 2014 8:46:51 GMT -5
Our so called corrupted nature is nothing but an illusion, its not who we truly are, so as long as you believe you are your corrupted nature that is who you will continue to be. Find who you truly are and your illusion of who you think you are will diminish. Our natural state of being is awareness: an awareness which is not of anything, but which is an all encompassing state of pure experience. Within awareness our minds are balanced, light, free, and flexible. We are not however, able to stay in this awareness, for our immediate inclination is to want to know who is experiencing what. As a result, awareness gives way to our ordinary consciousness which divides our perceptions into subject and object, creating as subject a 'self-image', the 'I'. But what actually is this 'I'? Can we actually find it anywhere in the mind? When we look carefully, we see that the 'I' is simply an image which the mind has projected. This 'I' has no reality in itself, yet we take it as real, and let it run our lives. The 'I' then obscures our awareness and separates us from our experience by dividing it into a subjective and an objective pole. ............The self-image thus perpetuates itself, tending to filter experience in ways that allow only its own rigid constructions to function. Neither open nor accepting, the self-image imprisons us in blockages and constrictions. Our natural flow of energy is interrupted, and the range of our responsiveness and the depth of our experience is severely limited. .............we must see first that our self-image is not a genuine part of us, that we do not need it, and that, in fact, the self-image obscures out true being. pages 12, 13 Openness Mind, Self-Knowledge and Inner Peace Through Meditation by Tarthang Tulku 1978, 1990 |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 9, 2014 10:02:28 GMT -5
"We are not actually able to stay in this awareness....."
The illusion is that there is someone who sometimes stays in awareness and sometimes leaves it. In fact, there is no one who comes or goes, stays or leaves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 14:40:45 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread. Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born. So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness. The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature? sdp You're already 'living through your uncorrupted nature'....you're really just looking for a change....and if you succeed in changing your general state of consciousness, you will still be living 'through your uncorrupted nature'. :-) Nothing wrong with 'change' by the way...Life IS change. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2014 16:48:27 GMT -5
Your primordial nature does not come and go, rather, your attention to it comes and goes...
This is an exceedingly easy thing to, 'fix'. ;-)
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Post by silence on Feb 9, 2014 18:06:14 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread. Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born. So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness. The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature? sdp You're already 'living through your uncorrupted nature'....you're really just looking for a change....and if you succeed in changing your general state of consciousness, you will still be living 'through your uncorrupted nature'. :-) Nothing wrong with 'change' by the way...Life IS change. UG related the situation in a way that centered around the body. For most, this is much easier to relate to and less dependent on vague terms like uncorrupted nature. More or less he said that every body was functioning in exactly the same way. That there is an astounding sensitivity and intelligence inherent to the organism. The only thing that is distorting this is thought. The incessant need to maintain the continuity of thought is exhausting you and dulling your senses. The bliss, the interpretation of God, all of it is nothing more than the harmonious functioning of the human being without the distortion of thought. That there is literally nothing wrong with you except that you lack the courage to accept what is already there. |
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Post by psychoslice on Feb 9, 2014 19:03:11 GMT -5
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 9, 2014 22:11:36 GMT -5
"We are not actually able to stay in this awareness....." The illusion is that there is someone who sometimes stays in awareness and sometimes leaves it. In fact, there is no one who comes or goes, stays or leaves. Why do you say this? and to whom? the illusion is making repetitive claims to those you say are not there.. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 1:35:20 GMT -5
You're already 'living through your uncorrupted nature'....you're really just looking for a change....and if you succeed in changing your general state of consciousness, you will still be living 'through your uncorrupted nature'. :-) Nothing wrong with 'change' by the way...Life IS change. in a way that centered around the body. For most, this is much easier to relate to and less dependent on vague terms like uncorrupted nature. More or less he said that every body was functioning in exactly the same way. That there is an astounding sensitivity and intelligence inherent to the organism. The only thing that is distorting this is thought. The incessant need to maintain the continuity of thought is exhausting you and dulling your senses. The bliss, the interpretation of God, all of it is nothing more than the harmonious functioning of the human being without the distortion of thought. That there is literally nothing wrong with you except that you lack the courage to accept what is already there. Hello my friend....I'm much more interested in your way of relating, as you are here and now so to speak, while UG kinda is not....having said that, UG seems pretty right on....I enjoy how he strove to de-mystify the simplicities that folks in these circles seem to mystify ;-) Its okay though, if SDP wants to, or is drawn toward big ideas about 'primordial nature' and 'uncorrupted self' etc....its really just his (and other's) means of focusing one's attention back on that silent alert bit of ourselves....for me, the whole mystical spiritual journey is largely about shifting one's attention....really, in a manner, life in general is all about where you place your attention. For many people, making a big cosmic mystery out this stuff is their way of shifting the the mental paradigm in a way that attention is re-prioritized, and more frequently maintained in that alert, silent, aware bit.....and, as UG said, there are some nice benefits to that! |
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Post by freejoy on Feb 10, 2014 3:09:14 GMT -5
I like this tread.
It seems the difficultly comes from the mind being interested in something other than Awareness. At least sometimes. So how to get the mind to lose interest in everything?
Also focusing on objects outside oneself or trying to focus on Awareness as a way to get the mind to stop thinking seems okay but when the mind stops thinking nothing happens. I wonder why it takes a prolonged period of "not thinking" ...is it because there is really thoughts still going on unconsciously?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 6:22:15 GMT -5
"We are not actually able to stay in this awareness....." The illusion is that there is someone who sometimes stays in awareness and sometimes leaves it. In fact, there is no one who comes or goes, stays or leaves. Why do you say this? and to whom? the illusion is making repetitive claims to those you say are not there.. Your signature line is ridiculous. |
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