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Post by lightmystic on Oct 27, 2009 13:03:29 GMT -5
Just because there is no personal component, does not mean that clarity does not increase. One does not imply the other, because it NEVER did. The individual NEVER existed as separate. There was NEVER anyone to grow. Why should that be different now? I would not say there is a longing anymore, but rather a recognition of what is coming. It may be that your friend and I are saying the same thing, but it doesn't feel like I have desires anymore. It feels more like I am just realizing what is about to occur. But that does not mean growth isn't occurring, as it is very much so, and apparently very quickly. There is more, and it's not coming out of a lack for anything. But life is ever growing into more, never stagnating for long. And Life is one way to talk about what I am.... You could definitely look at it in terms of puzzle solving. Questions arise at points in the growth, but it's not disconcerting, because it's clearly see how the question arose because the answer is forthcoming. And it always does, and integrates into something new and amazing. Without negating all the previous understanding. A deeper commentary on the infinite. A clearer view. It can be seen as a new question being answered, or a desire being fulfilled, but it's ultimately just a recognition and integration fo MORE. Forever. Ultimately, I find that it's all my own Awareness, so there is a knowing that underlies both thinking and feeling. It's where thinking and feeling meet. And that is primary way of functioning. It can be talked about in terms of thinking or feeling, but it's really that one thing that both thinking and feeling come out of. And I think everyone who has the understanding is operating that way to some extent, at least on the most fundamental level. But it seems to come in and fill up the less fundamental levels as well. That's the process of growth: of course it's seen clearly and cannot be unseen, but how visceral is it? It can always get more visceral.... Right now, Awareness is more solid and physical to me than anything before previously considered concrete and physical.... LM: Okay, I just finished a long conversation with my buddy who teaches in the Adyashanti tradition. He's a big-time feeler and he said that he would describe his situation much as you describe yours. He said that his search ended two years ago, but he still feels a poignant longing for deeper and deeper realization. For him it is like endlessly falling in love with what is. I'm cool with that. Apparently, the way we thinkers and feelers describe and think about our experiences are quite different, which is pretty fascinating. When you wrote that you were continuing to "grow," I recoiled at that statement. In my world it didn't compute. I would have said that this body/mind continues to see more and more, but I sense no personal component to that seeing. My buddy, however, totally identified with the word "grow," and said that he would describe his experiences the same way you did. I remember that many years ago he described his existential anguish as something that caused an internal "hurting," a kind of pain that he needed freedom from. Those words struck me as virtually meaningless. I would have described that stage in my search as facing an impersonal and abstract puzzle that demanded a concrete resolution. Dramos: What I am writing about here is based upon the Meiers Briggs Personality Test. Some people relate primarily to the world through thoughts and other people relate primarily through feelings. Both thinkers and feelers "know," but their knowing occurs in different ways. Thinkers relate more through impersonal abstract ideas whereas feelers relate more through personal visceral body sensing. From what my friend tells me, a feeler almost has a set of invisible antennae delicately sensing what's going on around them. Their "knowledge" is more global, more diffuse, and more internal whereas a thinker's knowledge is more hard-edged, one-pointed, and externalized. Some people take the MB test and find out that they are equal parts thinker and feeler; other people are off the end of the spectrum in one direction or the other. When I took the test, I was 100% a thinker whereas my wife was 100% a feeler. If the Buddha had taken the test, he would have been a strong T. Jesus would have been a strong F. Both men "knew" (gnossis) the absolute, but their "knowing" apparently came through their body/minds in different ways. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 27, 2009 15:41:06 GMT -5
LM: Yes, I understand what you're saying. I would simply use different words to explain the same thing. Oneness, in the form of particular body/minds, likes to attain greater and greater levels of clarity. It enjoys experiencing its own being in new ways and at increasing levels of depth. This is what you probably mean by "growth." Is that right? Oneness, as life, expands its understanding of itself unceasingly. This is probably what Christ was referring to when he said that his father's house contains many mansions. It's turtles all the way down. LOL. There is no doubt that there are some strange rooms one can wander into. One of these days we ought to start a thread and describe some of the more unusual things that one can encounter on this journey (to give people who haven't run into those things a "heads up"). We could title it, "Subconscious stuff, unity-consciousness, and non-locality," or "Bell's Theorem in action."
I think that my buddy is using the word "longing" in a different sense than desire because he is clearly at peace and is not searching for anything. He had a huge experience about eleven years ago during which he saw himself everywhere, but afterwards he remained dissatisfied. Two years ago the sense of there being a separate observer disappeared, and that is what ended his search as well as his feeling of discontent.
AAR, I think we're all pointing to the same thing even though our choice of words is somewhat different. Cheers.
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Post by loverofall on Oct 27, 2009 18:00:02 GMT -5
Has anyone taken the enneagram personality test. At www.enneagraminstitute.com you can find what personality you are and what is very unique about this they have taken each each personality and then added 9 levels from total dysfunction to enlightened. The extended desicriptions including childhood was so accurate with a couple of my friends it freaked them out. It is also very good to see how different personalities would change as they dropped illusions. |
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Post by loverofall on Oct 27, 2009 21:42:33 GMT -5
On another note, I was reading pointers today and then someone pointed me to resting awareness where instead of meditating you rest in awareness and I really got there explanation very clearly. They recommended to return to that as often as possible even if for little bits and I did all day. I also could see how it was nonseeking unlike meditation that seems to always have a seeking element to it. Maybe its just using the words resting awareness but I cleared up some major things. I started really to understand at the experience level whyseeking has to be dropped because any seeking is the mind and this about behind the mind. As soon as the little bit of seeking popped in I was no longer in resting awareness as I experienced that. It got so good tonight that all I really wanted to just sit and be and just sort of watch thoughts come and then let them go and get back to not seeking or thinking where at some level it feels like there is absolutely nothing to do or change. I will be curious to see how I wake up tomorrow. Like I have posted, there is anxiousness in the morning.
I guess if I could explain it better it was like you can't freakin be seeking if you want to go beyond. Duh! Other reading made much more sense. Basically I experienced seeing everything as perfect. Actually I am having a hard time getting motivated right now because my normal stressers aren't doing much to motivate me tonight. I guess I'll just enjoy this and see where it takes but its getting easier to get back to that clear seeing of where everything is all right.
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anonji
Junior Member
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Post by anonji on Oct 27, 2009 22:33:50 GMT -5
Seeking is an active process where you look for something. Usually you have an idea of what it is you want to find. Because it is an idea, it is more cognitive. And being cognitive, it will require some tension in order to locate and identify it.
Seeing, on the other hand, is passive. It is restful and has no expectations. Without the cognitive component, one watches the stream of consciousness as it happens. Life unfolds and we are witness.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 28, 2009 10:15:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I figured we were all talking about the same thing. It was interesting, though, when I look back on the process of "seeking." I feel like it was the process of growth itself. So, while I was expecting to find that I would go through the process of growth (which I equated with seeking) until I had the realization and then it would be over, and I wouldn't have to deal with the process again. It would be this other, separate place of doneness where there was no more growth process necessary. And certainly no challenging situations. What I found in reality was that same feeling doneness that I had known about and had been "seeking", but manifesting in an opposite way than I had expected. Instead of being in a separate place of "doneness", the doneness feeling coexisted with the process of growth. It can no longer be said to be seeking, but it's completely reverse from what was expected. And, because the knowingness that brings doneness is so clearly there since the shift, it was very confusing for a long time why there was still this process. But, at some point, there was a recognition that the process became everything. That's why there are no specific spiritual things anymore that I consciously do, because all of life has become that. That is now the only thing. I find that interesting and fascinating. I hadn't really thought about that aspect until the question of knowing when the end of one's search was looked at. LM: Yes, I understand what you're saying. I would simply use different words to explain the same thing. Oneness, in the form of particular body/minds, likes to attain greater and greater levels of clarity. It enjoys experiencing its own being in new ways and at increasing levels of depth. This is what you probably mean by "growth." Is that right? Oneness, as life, expands its understanding of itself unceasingly. This is probably what Christ was referring to when he said that his father's house contains many mansions. It's turtles all the way down. LOL. There is no doubt that there are some strange rooms one can wander into. One of these days we ought to start a thread and describe some of the more unusual things that one can encounter on this journey (to give people who haven't run into those things a "heads up"). We could title it, "Subconscious stuff, unity-consciousness, and non-locality," or "Bell's Theorem in action." I think that my buddy is using the word "longing" in a different sense than desire because he is clearly at peace and is not searching for anything. He had a huge experience about eleven years ago during which he saw himself everywhere, but afterwards he remained dissatisfied. Two years ago the sense of there being a separate observer disappeared, and that is what ended his search as well as his feeling of discontent. AAR, I think we're all pointing to the same thing even though our choice of words is somewhat different. Cheers. |
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 28, 2009 10:17:15 GMT -5
Very cool. And I find that growth will actually continue even faster BY relaxing into it the way you are talking. The stressers are okay and have their function, but it may not be a requirement to moving forward quickly.... On another note, I was reading pointers today and then someone pointed me to resting awareness where instead of meditating you rest in awareness and I really got there explanation very clearly. They recommended to return to that as often as possible even if for little bits and I did all day. I also could see how it was nonseeking unlike meditation that seems to always have a seeking element to it. Maybe its just using the words resting awareness but I cleared up some major things. I started really to understand at the experience level whyseeking has to be dropped because any seeking is the mind and this about behind the mind. As soon as the little bit of seeking popped in I was no longer in resting awareness as I experienced that. It got so good tonight that all I really wanted to just sit and be and just sort of watch thoughts come and then let them go and get back to not seeking or thinking where at some level it feels like there is absolutely nothing to do or change. I will be curious to see how I wake up tomorrow. Like I have posted, there is anxiousness in the morning. I guess if I could explain it better it was like you can't freakin be seeking if you want to go beyond. Duh! Other reading made much more sense. Basically I experienced seeing everything as perfect. Actually I am having a hard time getting motivated right now because my normal stressers aren't doing much to motivate me tonight. I guess I'll just enjoy this and see where it takes but its getting easier to get back to that clear seeing of where everything is all right. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 28, 2009 12:13:52 GMT -5
LM: I'm with you. From my perspective I never equated seeking with an endless process. I wanted to understand various things, and after I understood them, my search was over. That's why I became curious about your statement that the search never ends. To me, the word "search" seemed to imply a separate searcher (who ceases to exist upon finding the truth), but I can see that it can be looked at in a completely different way. Fascinating.
Hey, here's a funny story that you might enjoy. For ten years I wrote newspaper articles about this path (which no one understood). Later, I wrote a book for Christians (which almost no one understood), and still later I wrote a book for Buddhists (which a few people understood). I started writing a book about Advaita, but shelved it when my business required too much of my spare time. After my search ended in 1999, I was invited to give regular satsangs at a local church. Everyone seemed to enjoy them, and there was a fair amount of interest. Then, after 9/11 I gave a satsang and told everyone a story that I thought was very funny. I told them that reality is very mysterious and that you can never tell what will happen. I then said, "For example, when I was younger, I owned some guns that I inherited from my grandfather, but twenty years ago I sold them. Then, after 9/11, I had a strange desire to buy a weapon. I had no need for it, and I wasn't worried about anything, but this impulse appeared out of nowhere, and I acted upon it. I went to a local gun store, bought an assault rifle, went to a firing range and zeroed in the sights (I was a skilled marksman when I served in the Air Force in Vietnam), and then put it in a storage building where it sits today, untouched. I watched this activity unfold with amazement and considerable humor. Later, I discovered that three of my spiritual friends had done the same sort of thing. I have no idea why the universe wanted me to buy a weapon, but that's what it did."
I used this story to illustrate how strange reality can be, but apparently my intent was not well appreciated because I was never invited back to hold a satsang! LOL. After the satsang ended, one of the women who considered me a teacher was crying because her image of me had been destroyed. Her husband said to someone, "I know why he bought a gun. It's because he's a violent person." Double LOL.
I told my buddy who currently gives satsang that he better not say anything to ruin his image or he'll lose all of his followers! In retrospect I think God had me buy a gun so that I'd have another funny story to tell! Today the gun still sits in a warehouse untouched. Do you have any need for a zeroed-in assault rifle with a flame suppressor and thirty bullet clip? Cheers.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 28, 2009 13:45:52 GMT -5
Hey ZD, That IS a good story. It seems to me that all reasons about why something happens seem to be backwards rationalization that just comes from feeling connected (or disconnected if there seems to be no reason). That said, it sounds like the reason  that you bought the gun was to a.) learn that people were stuck with this whole image thing, and b.) give you a graceful way to get out of those satsangs, since you were apparently done giving them in that location. It's a shame that people are so myopic though. I think all spiritual teachers should own guns just to make the point. And perhaps eat meat occasionally as well. And maybe kill a baby so that...what? What?! Don't give me that look! Oh, like YOU'VE never killed a baby before! Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh, I remember: If you ARE going to buy a gun, an assault rifle seems like an awesome choice. You may not ever use it, but you are surely just a little bit more badass than you were before. And, you have to admit, there is something refreshingly badass about Zen. So it kind of fits. LM: I'm with you. From my perspective I never equated seeking with an endless process. I wanted to understand various things, and after I understood them, my search was over. That's why I became curious about your statement that the search never ends. To me, the word "search" seemed to imply a separate searcher (who ceases to exist upon finding the truth), but I can see that it can be looked at in a completely different way. Fascinating. Hey, here's a funny story that you might enjoy. For ten years I wrote newspaper articles about this path (which no one understood). Later, I wrote a book for Christians (which almost no one understood), and still later I wrote a book for Buddhists (which a few people understood). I started writing a book about Advaita, but shelved it when my business required too much of my spare time. After my search ended in 1999, I was invited to give regular satsangs at a local church. Everyone seemed to enjoy them, and there was a fair amount of interest. Then, after 9/11 I gave a satsang and told everyone a story that I thought was very funny. I told them that reality is very mysterious and that you can never tell what will happen. I then said, "For example, when I was younger, I owned some guns that I inherited from my grandfather, but twenty years ago I sold them. Then, after 9/11, I had a strange desire to buy a weapon. I had no need for it, and I wasn't worried about anything, but this impulse appeared out of nowhere, and I acted upon it. I went to a local gun store, bought an assault rifle, went to a firing range and zeroed in the sights (I was a skilled marksman when I served in the Air Force in Vietnam), and then put it in a storage building where it sits today, untouched. I watched this activity unfold with amazement and considerable humor. Later, I discovered that three of my spiritual friends had done the same sort of thing. I have no idea why the universe wanted me to buy a weapon, but that's what it did." I used this story to illustrate how strange reality can be, but apparently my intent was not well appreciated because I was never invited back to hold a satsang! LOL. After the satsang ended, one of the women who considered me a teacher was crying because her image of me had been destroyed. Her husband said to someone, "I know why he bought a gun. It's because he's a violent person." Double LOL. I told my buddy who currently gives satsang that he better not say anything to ruin his image or he'll lose all of his followers! In retrospect I think God had me buy a gun so that I'd have another funny story to tell! Today the gun still sits in a warehouse untouched. Do you have any need for a zeroed-in assault rifle with a flame suppressor and thirty bullet clip? Cheers. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 28, 2009 16:53:10 GMT -5
loverofall: You've probably noticed this already, but every time you meditate it is different than the time before (no two meditations are the same). Sometimes you can sink right in, and at other times the mind wants to run in circles and stay distracted. Notice, too, that there is no seeking when you are focused on your breathing (or focused on anything else); the seeking only arises when thoughts about seeking arise. If you simply watch thoughts appear and play themselves out, you will not become attached to them.
Meditation, itself, has no seeking element. It's the idea that "if I meditate, I'll attain something" that contains the seeking element. Eventually, if one pursues it far enough, one meditates for no reason at all. The entire process becomes utterly empty.
Yes, it will be interesting to see how your practice affects the anxiousness you feel. Many people meditate for the strictly secular reason of reducing stress and anxiety. Dr. Weil and other holistic physicians recommend deep breathing and breath awareness as primary ways to reduce stress and anxiety and lower blood pressure.
I don't know how much advice you've been given about formal practice, but here are some things to experiment with. Begin by breathing out and then use your diaphragm at the end of the first several exhalations to expel more of the residual air in your lungs than usual. Breathe through your nose and use your diaphragm muscles rather than your chest muscles to control your breathing. This will increase your attentiveness and reduce the distracting body movements associated with chest breathing. Put your tongue against your upper palette and don't move it around. If you're a beginner, don;t close your eyes (it's too easy to fall asleep); keep them half open and unfocused. Point them toward the floor at about 45 degrees below the horizontal. Sit upright in a position that can be maintained comfortably for a long period of time.
Much of the standard advice, such as the above, is designed to reduce body movement and what's called proprioceptive sensory response (I think that's the phrase). If this advice is followed, it allows you to focus faster and get into deeper states of emptiness that are undisturbed by body movements. Imagining that you are in a jungle surrounded by wild animals at night automatically gives you a sense of what a super-heightened state of alertness is like. Your body automatically starts breathing diaphragmatically to reduce the noise generated by breathing. The entire body becomes alive and alert in order to prepare for "fight or flight." This is the kind of attentiveness that can become present during meditation and it often leads to deep states of absorption such as samadhi.
Don't be surprised if weird stuff happens as a result of practicing non-conceptual awareness for sustained periods of time. Energy levels are often affected, and you may find yourself either dragging through the day like a dead person or feeling like superman. Stuff may bubble up from your subconscious that can be either blissful or extremely frightening. People have reported temporary paralysis, the re-living of past events, hallucinations, and lots of other strange stuff. The best advice is to just watch whatever arises without getting attached to it. The weirder stuff usually clears out within a year or so. Cheers.
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Post by loverofall on Oct 28, 2009 20:31:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the tips. Much more specific than I have read.
I will say for some reason calling there has been a shift by just using the term resting in awareness for me. I must have more seeking attached to the connotation of meditating than I thought.
This shift at times is very similar to the feeling after an unexpected nap during a tv show. It been a great day and I have to admit, there is a part of me that is a little scared it will lose the ability to do this more. The mind always trying to control and create fear I guess.
How long is the recommended meditation? I have heard at least 30 minutes and sometimes twice a day. I think now I can really meditate because of actually getting this experience I have had of a deeper presence and relaxation.
I can see how words really are hard to use to explain experiences because this is very unique to me.
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Post by Portto on Oct 29, 2009 7:38:01 GMT -5
AAR, I think we're all pointing to the same thing even though our choice of words is somewhat different. Cheers. Does it necessarily have to be the same thing? |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 29, 2009 9:04:14 GMT -5
Porto: Not at all, but we're using words to share our experiences, and trying to understand if we're talking about the same thing. After some reflection, I concluded that Lightmystic and I were on the same page in this regard.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 29, 2009 10:06:08 GMT -5
Not necessarily, but truth is truth, and it can be recognized in many forms. And there seems to be a value to getting on the same page, as it increases the understanding of what one is already experiencing. So I like it. AAR, I think we're all pointing to the same thing even though our choice of words is somewhat different. Cheers. Does it necessarily have to be the same thing? |
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Post by astenny on Oct 30, 2009 10:38:59 GMT -5
Not necessarily, but truth is truth, and it can be recognized in many forms. And there seems to be a value to getting on the same page, as it increases the understanding of what one is already experiencing. So I like it. By getting together and talking/chatting/posting as we do, it helps me to see things from a different angle sometimes. Too often I will only see a certain "truth" from one direction, and it helps to be jarred into seeing it differently. I cannot remember who, but someone mentioned that they were looking for concrete answers for certain questions and that their search ended with concrete answers. For me, I never do such a search. Too often if I try to search for something like that I end up like a horse with blinders, and I later discover that I missed a very important lesson. |
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LM: Okay, I just finished a long conversation with my buddy who teaches in the Adyashanti tradition. He's a big-time feeler and he said that he would describe his situation much as you describe yours. He said that his search ended two years ago, but he still feels a poignant longing for deeper and deeper realization. For him it is like endlessly falling in love with what is. I'm cool with that. Apparently, the way we thinkers and feelers describe and think about our experiences are quite different, which is pretty fascinating.
that you bought the gun was to a.) learn that people were stuck with this whole image thing, and b.) give you a graceful way to get out of those satsangs, since you were apparently done giving them in that location. It's a shame that people are so myopic though. I think all spiritual teachers should own guns just to make the point. And perhaps eat meat occasionally as well. And maybe kill a baby so that...what? What?! Don't give me that look! Oh, like YOU'VE never killed a baby before!