How will you recognize the end of the search?

[zendancer]

Giannis: Maybe for some people the search disappears as irrelevant, but I suspect that more often it comes to a distinct and concrete end. It is called "waking up" because that is exactly what it feels like. After living under the illusion that you are a separate entity for twenty, thirty, or forty years, it is quite astonishing to suddenly see through the illusion of separateness and perceive the underlying truth in an obvious manner. I searched for the truth without knowing what I was doing for about twenty years. Then, after an initial breakthrough experience, I searched knowingly and actively for another fifteen years. My search ended on a particular day about ten years ago, and after that day I was free. I didn't have to admit anything; it was a fundamental realization that suddenly occurred. My last existential question was totally answered. From reading the posts on this website I suspect that at least six people here have had the same kind of experience. Adyashanti, as another example, was a hard-core searcher for more than twenty years, and one afternoon he was sitting in a small chapel and....Boom! He finally found what he had been searching for and his search came to an abrupt end. I think this is far more typical than a search that disappears because it seems irrelevant.

Although the search may appear to start at the level of mind, that which lies at the core of the search is much deeper than the intellect. There is no human being involved in the process.

[giannis]

Zendancer... I trust that you are true and honest.
So, trusting you, I should probably rephrase:
maybe my search is still going on strongly, it's just that I gave it up but it still keeps on going on its own.
So... MY search is over, but the search goes on, affecting me deeply day by day.

The only thing that I know is that I admit without being pretentious that my core and the core of the world is not what I thought it was.

[Zendancer1]

Giannis: I'm on a home computer and couldn't log on as usual, so I'm posting as a guest. Your reply makes more sense to me, but it prompts me to ask several questions in an effort to further understand your experiences and outlook. First, when you say that you gave up your search, who was it who gave up the search and in what way did that happen? Second, if the search ended but continues on its own without any personal involvement, what do you think is being searched for? I ask these questions because the search can sometimes become quite subtle. It is possible to have a fairly deep level of understanding and yet, some sense of personal selfhood remains. It is as if the dualistic thought structure of "self" and "other" has retreated and lurks somewhat below the surface. I can tell you that prior to the end of my own search I already knew that I was not a separate entity and that when I looked at the world, I was looking at myself. Even with that understanding, however, I was still not free. There must have been some subtle structure of selfhood present because "I" was still wanting to get enlightened. I had phrased the quest somewhat differently than that, but that is what it boiled down to. Consequently, I was very surprised when the truth mysteriously appeared. Until that moment I had not realized that my search was still being propelled by a subtle sense that there was someone, a me, that needed to get something. When the illusion of "me" evaporated, everything became clear, and I literally laughed at the realization that my entire search had been based upon something that had never existed.

In your case the search may have gone underground. Apparently you do not feel like you are searching for anything, and you have no questions that you think need to be answered. If you feel that you are going deeper each day, and at the same time feel there is no separate you experiencing that, then your path may be somewhat different than the one I've described. Perhaps you never had a "hard-core" sense of selfhood and your path is unfolding in a more gradual way. At the same time, some of the things you wrote make me suspect that one day you may have the same kind of surprise I had. AAR, please keep us abreast of your experiences. Your path is fascinating.

One thing is for sure, as you so aptly put it, your core and the core of the universe is not what anyone thinks it is. Cheers.

[giannis]

Dear Zendancer, thank you for taking the time to write something about your experiences.
I don´t know exactly what has happened in my case, if I talk, it will be mere speculation.

I just feel that some sort of subtle door has opened and pushes my understanding forward.
I feel in my body what I was reading about in zen books, my "personal story" seems more distant and the world much more like my body.
Of course I still have myself.

I just don't feel the need to lose myself if that thing can ever happen (to me).

If I relax myself into headlessness I gain some new insight every day or so, and I don't even push myself to meditate or keep on searching.
It's happening.

I think that the headless experience is a humble one, maybe too humble for our minds to take it seriously. Maybe it is even non perceivable.
But it must have happened and I come to appreciate it more and more.

In the past I had some much more "hollywood like" experiences, but they came and left...

This time, I simply "admitted" that something lies in our cores and the core of the world, that the "void" behind everything might not be so "void" ...
It's like I let it pass through the gates of my critical thinking, and it's beginning to change my perspective.
I still am exactly as I was, I have myself etc, no ego death here.
In ego death classes I'm a first grade.

Subtly though, it's just like my "center", my "me" is expanding to become bigger than the world (or probably the world is shrinking to fit me), and at the same time my "me" is getting trully weaker than before (if these words do mean anything).

It's so subtle that I feel that probably nothing has happened.
Who knows, I just feel different, like being in love and not knowing with whom. Something invisible probably.
Really subtle.

I'm pretty sure that this differs from the enlightenment experiences I hear about...

It feels right though, and I have a feeling that if I trust this and respect it, it will do what needs to be done. I don't care if I'm doing it right, I trust that if I keep myself interested in that, it will do something at least better than what I've done all these years with "effort", which in a way was a pretentious effort. After all, I didn't manage anything "enlightenment-wise" all these years...
(Except from some fancy experiences that are already forgotten...)

I just realized that this sounds a little bit like what lightmystic has been talking about.
Nurture that "feeling"... maybe this is just it.

I have no clue.
It's just that my center, my self, feels different.
I can't say that I made that happen, it happened on its own since I don't see any connection with my "efforts".

Every but Every feedback from you or anyone around here is welcomed.

[vacant]

I very much relate to that Giannis. I too find myself making friends with "my own way", nurturing it and trusting it, thanks in great part to encouragement from the helpful and good-willing characters who inhabit this forum

I feel that other seekers and finders are there to remind us of the Self and it's existence, as welcome incarnations of our own Inspiration so to speak, but I can walk my own path only.

No point in trying to experience what others (seem to) experience. As a matter of fact, no point either in trying to replicate the experience I had yesterday or earlier today however blessed or gratifying it might have been. It never works. All that comes to pass and the steps to take are to walk and to be discovered right here right now, in the certitude that they are presented by the Self.

[lightmystic]

giannis, vacant. Great points here.

There's definitely great value to trusting yourself, while simultaneously requiring the utmost emotional honesty from oneself. Both are very important in my experience.

It's also a wonderful day, from my perspective, that one realizes that continued progression happens fastest and most effectively BY accepting what is going on now. More comes most effectively through the acceptance that what is here now is enough.


That said, one of the most valuable recognitions I have ever made (pointed at by a dear friend) was the recognition that any experience that others are having, any experience that has been had in the past, are experiences that your own Infinite Awareness contains. The fact that we even want that feeling at all means it's ALREADY there as a feeling, or we wouldn't even know to want it. It might be too subtle to be satisfying, and that's why it's experienced as a desire, but it IS already there. And, being already there, it just means that it needs more clarity to become one's living reality in a satisfying way all the time. And that can come by paying attention to that inner feeling...it works every time. The paying attention to it waters the seed of the feeling so it can blossom into fulfillment. This works every single time for me without exception, as long as I stay with the feeling, and don't try to assume that the fulfillment of the feeling is going to look any specific or certain way on the surface of Life. Desire is a feeling of fulfillment that needs to be watered to fruition with gentle inner attention.

It's also the same principle if you hear about someone else's experience and go "I want that!" What you want is the feeling that came up when the experience was described. And it was YOU who was having that experience. So by taking credit for that, and realizing/recognizing that, then gentle attention to that feeling that was perceived as someone else's experience will bring it to fruition in you.


It's then just a question of are we willing to let go of the next thing, open to the next thing so that the feeling can make it's home in us all the time in a fulfilling way....

What do you guys think? If you want to try it, I would enjoy hearing your experiences with recognizing that...

[vacant]

while simultaneously requiring the utmost emotional honesty from oneself

Agreed, I think some caution needs to come in here. I 've been taking your advise, LM, in accepting the feeling as being IT reaching through me, and yours ZD in not second guessing (+SS= 100% don't know) but one should be unforgivably selective on the honesty level, otherwise it's too easy to embark on a self flattering trip.

That said, one of the most valuable recognitions I have ever made (pointed at by a dear friend) was the recognition that any experience that others are having, any experience that has been had in the past, are experiences that your own Infinite Awareness contains. The fact that we even want that feeling at all means it's ALREADY there as a feeling, or we wouldn't even know to want it. It might be too subtle to be satisfying, and that's why it's experienced as a desire, but it IS already there. And, being already there, it just means that it needs more clarity to become one's living reality in a satisfying way all the time. And that can come by paying attention to that inner feeling...it works every time. The paying attention to it waters the seed of the feeling so it can blossom into fulfillment. This works every single time for me without exception, as long as I stay with the feeling, and don't try to assume that the fulfillment of the feeling is going to look any specific or certain way on the surface of Life. Desire is a feeling of fulfillment that needs to be watered to fruition with gentle inner attention.
It's also the same principle if you hear about someone else's experience and go "I want that!" What you want is the feeling that came up when the experience was described. And it was YOU who was having that experience. So by taking credit for that, and realizing/recognizing that, then gentle attention to that feeling that was perceived as someone else's experience will bring it to fruition in you.

For me your post is stirring a lot of stuff... useful I trust, but fairly confusing at first. I need a bit of chewing on this. I cannot deny feeling desire for better understanding and so I WANT to try your recommended method (and then report). But first I have to pass the hurdle of deciding when it is safe to give way to desire as opposed to give up on it. I do recognize this as self doubt but cannot dismiss it in the process of proper self-inquiry.

It's then just a question of are we willing to let go of the next thing, open to the next thing so that the feeling can make it's home in us all the time in a fulfilling way....

Sweet! I can tell that's working.
Thanks as ever. please do keep it coming, a good stirring goes a long way.

[giannis]

Just a thought that came to mind
(Everybody who "knows" what spirituality is all about, is kindly requested to correct me if this is wrong):

What if the "goal" of spirituality was something ridiculously simple?

So simple that every mind would dismiss as non important and keep on "searching"?

Many mystics say that.
Many traditions say that you already have "it".

Maybe all our quests and searching are self inflicting drama, just to be able to appreciate what's already given.
If certain mystics are right, then we are already "it", we just don't appreciate it and grasp it.

So, I just want to propose not only to be deadly honest, but to keep an eye for something so self explanatory that our "advanced spiritual minds" would feel almost offended by its simplicity and matter of factness.

[Zendancer1]

Giannis: Yes, that is precisely the situation. If everyone could simply drop their ideas about the world (expectations, fantasies, beliefs, etc) he/she would see the truth. It is extremely obvious and simple, but we are so habituated to making things complicated, that it remains hidden. By the time we start searching for the truth we have acquired habits of mind that keep it hidden from us. The truth is the one thing that can't be gotten in the usual way. Every other human goal can be achieved by acquiring abstract knowledge, but the truth requires us to give up all abstractions and see what remains. We even have to give up our idea of who we think we are.

The only legitimate desire on this path is the desire to wake up. When that desire becomes more important than anything else--more important than anything the world has to offer--the universe will respond. Cheers.

[lightmystic]

Hey vacant,

Good to hear. Stirring is wonderful! (and disorienting!)

Please recognize that the process of accepting the underlying feeling and letting go of desires ARE the same process. The whole point of letting go of desires is so that we stop associating the feeling with the outside thing. And then we see that we can have the feeling all the time. That's the same process, with just a slightly different focus. It's focusing on desiring the feeling, going for the feeling, which is found in the unknown-ness...then the object of desire has to be released or else we are limiting the way it can be fulfilled. That brand of emotional honesty (because desire itself is natural) really seems to help change the habit of associating desires outside ourselves. Because, when we stop doing that, and stop dictating what their fulfillment has to look like on the surface, then we actually open the space for the fulfillment to happen. It gets resolved internally, and then there is peace. If anything is needed on the outside to make that desire fulfilling at that point, it just comes.

And that reminds me of two points that I found to be particularly tricky. The first is that there is the idea that the Super Enlightened Guy in the cave is so hopped up on fulfillment that he doesn't need relative desires fulfilled. In reality, the Super Enlightened Guy is able to be in the cave BECAUSE all those desires are fulfilled, not because he's comfortable going without them. They have all been accepted as the desire for feelings they really are, and so he's living them. He's not going without in any way.

The second thing is this idea that we should not desire or need anything. I find that it simply isn't true. But what that principle points to, again, is that it's just a feeling we desire, and so life will take care of the details on the surface of how that is fulfilled. It's perhaps true that the feeling just blossoms and that is the fulfillment, but that doesn't mean that it can't be equally true that we need a big screen TV. It just means that if we accept the feeling openly, then whatever we need will come to us, one way or another. So it's guaranteed that we will end up with a big screen TV if that's really what we need. And then we'll have it until it's better not to have it - and that time may never come (until physical death - usually then we tend to not need physical possessions so much ). So it can actually be a hindrance to actively exclude fulfillment by coming from an apparent outside source because it is can be a hindrance to decide that one thing will bring fulfillment over another. We really don't know what's going to bring the fulfillment. But if we're open, and we accept the desire as the desire for a feeling, then we can let life take care of details without limiting our options or trying to personally control it. If we do that, then it always gets fulfilled. I don't know why, but it seems to be that simple. Being with the unknown, accepting the connection between internal and external, and starting release whatever limits we have put on ourselves starts to the whole world caving in.

And then it gets even harder to pin down after that.

Sept 28, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -5 vacant said:

while simultaneously requiring the utmost emotional honesty from oneself

Agreed, I think some caution needs to come in here. I 've been taking your advise, LM, in accepting the feeling as being IT reaching through me, and yours ZD in not second guessing (+SS= 100% don't know) but one should be unforgivably selective on the honesty level, otherwise it's too easy to embark on a self flattering trip.


For me your post is stirring a lot of stuff... useful I trust, but fairly confusing at first. I need a bit of chewing on this. I cannot deny feeling desire for better understanding and so I WANT to try your recommended method (and then report). But first I have to pass the hurdle of deciding when it is safe to give way to desire as opposed to give up on it. I do recognize this as self doubt but cannot dismiss it in the process of proper self-inquiry.

It's then just a question of are we willing to let go of the next thing, open to the next thing so that the feeling can make it's home in us all the time in a fulfilling way....

Sweet! I can tell that's working.
Thanks as ever. please do keep it coming, a good stirring goes a long way.

[lightmystic]

That's the spirit! It's ALWAYS less, not more. Less in the way of what's already there, already been there the whole time. When it's recognized, people tend to go "oh, THAT thing?! But that's always been there! What have I been doing all these years?"

But it appears as a process of releasing because we've BEEN resisting so intensely for lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes. We have deeply ingrained habits of believing the assumption that we are separate people. And these are at a deep visceral/emotional gut level. Because if we don't exist there on the most fundamental level, then it brings up questions of annihilation and fear and such. Of course, nothing gets annihilated that ever really existed, but it certainly doesn't feel that way for most people until that threshold has been able to be crossed. So it's a process of gently feeling into the ways we already are resisting, the ways we have already BEEN resisting so intensely for so long, so that it can slowly and gently unwind. THEN we can finally stop avoiding, and start actually paying attention to what has been there the whole time. But it's just not reasonable to expect ourselves to really be able to pay attention with the kind of assumptions, resistances, and fear that is in the way for most people. So it has to unravel over time. Obviously if there is a passionate interest in freedom, then that suggests that there is enough clarity to know to want it. So that is a very good sign. So it's just a matter of deeper and deeper releasing that which we are already hanging on to. It's actually easier, simpler, less energy to just Be without resisting, but, like a tight muscle, it actually has to be gently massaged to be released most of the time. Gentle attention to feeling the resistance, using whatever method makes the most sense to you (and works best for you).

And then that simplest thing in the world takes over more and more, becoming the only thing. That thing at the back of Awareness, that seems to always be there, that nagging feeling like something is amazing just on the other side of the looking glass, is more real than what is commonly thought of as reality...we just have to clean our lenses with some serious solution. And that's a real process....

But it DOES work.

Sept 28, 2009 20:48:34 GMT -5 giannis said:

Just a thought that came to mind
(Everybody who "knows" what spirituality is all about, is kindly requested to correct me if this is wrong):

What if the "goal" of spirituality was something ridiculously simple?

So simple that every mind would dismiss as non important and keep on "searching"?

Many mystics say that.
Many traditions say that you already have "it".

Maybe all our quests and searching are self inflicting drama, just to be able to appreciate what's already given.
If certain mystics are right, then we are already "it", we just don't appreciate it and grasp it.

So, I just want to propose not only to be deadly honest, but to keep an eye for something so self explanatory that our "advanced spiritual minds" would feel almost offended by its simplicity and matter of factness.

[divinity]

I'm suspending my search to go out and stack the cord of wood I just bought...

[Peter]

You're suspending your search while you stack wood? Isn't that exactly where you're likely to find it?

Sangharaksh1ta has a phrase: If your work is not your meditation, then your meditation is not your meditation.

I love wood.

PS Swear check is stopping me from putting a hyperlink to the man's name, and I had to change an i to a 1. Follow the link on the left hand side of the FWBO site.

[vacant]

Hey vacant,

Good to hear. Stirring is wonderful! (and disorienting!)

Please recognize that the process of accepting the underlying feeling and letting go of desires ARE the same process. The whole point of letting go of desires is so that we stop associating the feeling with the outside thing. And then we see that we can have the feeling all the time. That's the same process, with just a slightly different focus. It's focusing on desiring the feeling, going for the feeling, which is found in the unknown-ness...then the object of desire has to be released or else we are limiting the way it can be fulfilled. That brand of emotional honesty (because desire itself is natural) really seems to help change the habit of associating desires outside ourselves. Because, when we stop doing that, and stop dictating what their fulfillment has to look like on the surface, then we actually open the space for the fulfillment to happen. It gets resolved internally, and then there is peace. If anything is needed on the outside to make that desire fulfilling at that point, it just comes.

And that reminds me of two points that I found to be particularly tricky. The first is that there is the idea that the Super Enlightened Guy in the cave is so hopped up on fulfillment that he doesn't need relative desires fulfilled. In reality, the Super Enlightened Guy is able to be in the cave BECAUSE all those desires are fulfilled, not because he's comfortable going without them. They have all been accepted as the desire for feelings they really are, and so he's living them. He's not going without in any way.

The second thing is this idea that we should not desire or need anything. I find that it simply isn't true. But what that principle points to, again, is that it's just a feeling we desire, and so life will take care of the details on the surface of how that is fulfilled. It's perhaps true that the feeling just blossoms and that is the fulfillment, but that doesn't mean that it can't be equally true that we need a big screen TV. It just means that if we accept the feeling openly, then whatever we need will come to us, one way or another. So it's guaranteed that we will end up with a big screen TV if that's really what we need. And then we'll have it until it's better not to have it - and that time may never come (until physical death - usually then we tend to not need physical possessions so much ). So it can actually be a hindrance to actively exclude fulfillment by coming from an apparent outside source because it is can be a hindrance to decide that one thing will bring fulfillment over another. We really don't know what's going to bring the fulfillment. But if we're open, and we accept the desire as the desire for a feeling, then we can let life take care of details without limiting our options or trying to personally control it. If we do that, then it always gets fulfilled. I don't know why, but it seems to be that simple. Being with the unknown, accepting the connection between internal and external, and starting release whatever limits we have put on ourselves starts to the whole world caving in.

And then it gets even harder to pin down after that.

Wow, LM....
There are a few direct tips you have given me since I joined the board, and every time I find that I'm better to live through a day or so to let what must be the gist of your post reach and take root. I'm often shocked by your romantic approach to Self-discovery, almost like you're saying to just flirt with the feeling of Truth in there, and the favors will get won. Right?
Then after a day or 2 or 3 I'm not shocked at all, all that's left is what I think matters. I guess what's between the lines does reach over.
So I might just go quiet for a little while and let this filter through. I read most days whether logged in or not, as probably a lot of us do. Thanks.

You're suspending your search while you stack wood? Isn't that exactly where you're likely to find it?

Sangharaksh1ta has a phrase: If your work is not your meditation, then your meditation is not your meditation.

I love wood.

Peter, that's a great post!

[lightmystic]

Perfectly said IMHO.

blocked by swearcheck? Hehe. That's really funny. That's what you get for follow teachers with dirty dirty names!

Sept 30, 2009 5:23:07 GMT -5 Peter said:

You're suspending your search while you stack wood? Isn't that exactly where you're likely to find it?

Sangharaksh1ta has a phrase: If your work is not your meditation, then your meditation is not your meditation.

I love wood.

PS Swear check is stopping me from putting a hyperlink to the man's name, and I had to change an i to a 1. Follow the link on the left hand side of the FWBO site.