How will you recognize the end of the search?

[lightmystic]

Thanks vacant! What I love about you is how you internalize the message so completely. You really get direct pointing, and that's refreshing.

When you say back to me what you got from the message, it ends up being an expression uniquely your own, and I quite enjoy hearing that expression, because you have your own take on it.

For example, flirt with life? Brilliant! I had not even thought of it that way, but, yes, that IS what it's like. And that's a great image. It's very much like an intimate relationship on all levels, and you bringing that up happens to also have given me exactly what I needed to hear right now. So, thank you. I appreciate it!

Of course, it's not a coincidence that you happened to say exactly what I needed to hear. It's a setup. But that actually just makes the whole thing even more awesome!


I'm glad you are taking a couple days of quietness is if that's what's next for you. Again, I really appreciate how you really recognize that it's your own experience your feeling. Then you can really internalize it, and that seems to be what you've been doing. Anyway, I will enjoy hearing the results of your integrative time if you want to share it when you're done.

Cheers!

Sept 30, 2009 7:53:37 GMT -5 vacant said:

Wow, LM....
There are a few direct tips you have given me since I joined the board, and every time I find that I'm better to live through a day or so to let what must be the gist of your post reach and take root. I'm often shocked by your romantic approach to Self-discovery, almost like you're saying to just flirt with the feeling of Truth in there, and the favors will get won. Right?
Then after a day or 2 or 3 I'm not shocked at all, all that's left is what I think matters. I guess what's between the lines does reach over.
So I might just go quiet for a little while and let this filter through. I read most days whether logged in or not, as probably a lot of us do. Thanks.

[giannis]

There is no end in the search.
There is just the void emitting you, the world, your thoughts...
Probably many more surprises in this trip of existance...
We just reach a point where instead of thinking and try to understand, we look in awe and that feels more legitimate than any answer.
Look like a silly child, that after all is more wise than a philosopher who has so many hidden assumptions.

End of search, who knows... the search flows, trust it, trust the emission of the world from the void itself, trust the fact that things exist.

I know how retarded that sounds, but it's like that.

[divinity]

To say we are searching is to say we are searching for something we don't have, or have not found. Why is it that many people on the planet seem not to be searching at all?

[Peter]

Or something we have, but have covered up and forgotten so that we no longer recognise it as being there.

So many 1 - 2 line posts Divinity! Someone might think you were trying to bump up your Post Count! Did you find anything in your woodpile?

Do you think it would be "better" if more people were searching? Perhaps at some level, they sense the threat that spiritual enquiry poses to all they hold dear, including themselves?

Still haven't found that quote about men doing anything to avoid looking into their souls, but the other thing that came to mind is this quote from The Matrix:

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see. Business men, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me Neo, or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?

[zendancer]

Why is it that many people on the planet seem not to be searching at all? There are two ways to answer this question:

1. Because they don't know they've lost anything.
2. I snap my fingers.

The second answer is far stronger.

[Peter]

More irritating you mean?

Intense irritation as a gateway to experience the absolute.

There is no one to be irritated. However, there is irritation.

Actually that would explain a lot about the world...

Where's X's Shadow when you feel like a poetic interlude?

[lightmystic]

so...does that mean that people will be searching if I stop snapping fingers...?

Oct 5, 2009 8:25:53 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Why is it that many people on the planet seem not to be searching at all? There are two ways to answer this question:

1. Because they don't know they've lost anything.
2. I snap my fingers.

The second answer is far stronger.

[zendancer]

Ha ha. Snapping my fingers means .....(silently snaps fingers again). I could also hold up an index finger in silence. Same same. What is the meaning of deep Christianity? (finger or snap) Why is the world the way it is? (finger or snap) Why am I typing on this computer? (finger or snap, or, as one old Zen Master verbally put it, "I have to! I have to!"

[dramos]

Peter, it's ironic that you mention that movie....for some reason I had the urge to watch it the other night and it took on a whole new meaning for me.

I actually have this friend that keeps talking about what his purpose is. I made myself aware not to interupt his process and waited for the moment to unfold. Some time had passed, one morning we were having coffee and he began mentioning this again. He then personally asked me the question...."why am I here, what is my purpose"?

Now before coming to this point I paid close attention, from past conversations, to what direction he was taking this for I needed to discern whether or not he was truly seeking or passive conversation.

So when he looked at me and asked, I directed the question back to him, "are you asking me this question"? His response was yes. From that moment I understood and rather than "thinking" how to respond, I just let the "moment" take it's course. I told him "I can show you the door but it is you that has to make that move, this is your journey, not mine, for each experiences his own "journey", I can not interfer".

Basically the "red" pill or "blue" pill you decide. Time will tell if he is ready to "unplug or not"

snap ........................I had to...........lol

[morons shadow]

to be clever morons

we must encapsulate ourselves

from what cannot be hidden



this is hard

so we go to school

and listen to our parents



so it gets easier

until it gets hard again

and so it goes



we learn how to believe

what to believe

why to believe



eventually with a little luck

it gets really really sheetie

aint life a drag



it just stares you down

and down and down and down

all hopes, dreams, and beliefs crushed



then you remember

youre a clever moron

lifes great



become the moron you are

what are you?

let go of the moron

what are you?



its really that simple

from a moron

to the lovely clever morons



back to -ing

[Peter]

How happy is the moron,

He doesn't give a d4mn.

I wish I were a moron...

my God, perhaps I am!

[zendancer]

Peter: Fabulous!

[dramos]

Understood
A man of ignorance will think what to say, a man knowing will not think and says nothing.

[zendancer]

Dramos: That's correct. What we call "intuition" is actually a form of body-knowing (gnossis). In comparison, head-knowing (episteme) is very superficial. This is why people on the unitive path make jokes about how little they "know." They are referring to head-knowledge. They know how to not-know. Ordinary people only see the relative world of abstractions whereas sages and spiritual masters see both the relative and absolute at the same time and can freely move back and forth between the two. A common exhange between two masters might go something like this:

1. Who are you?
2. I'm the one who just asked the question.
1. How can you say that? The words came out of MY mouth.
2. Then you must not know who you are.
1. You're right about that. I definitely don't know who I am.
2. Well, I guess we're in the same boat after all.
1. It's funny how these horses keep crashing into each other.
2. It can't be helped. It can't be helped.
(both laugh)

Head-knowledge and conventional education is obviously valuable (this is what gives us novacaine, vaccines, and all of the other advances in science and technology), but from the standpoint of existential issues it is useless. It can't tell us anything important about life.

Several years ago I did some experiments with children to see if it might be possible to approach education using a unitive methodology. I called the classes, "existential science," and several of my friends sent their fifth graders to attend. I had a blast and I think the kids did, too. Here is how I began:

"Today, we're going to discuss a lot of scientific issues, and do a lot of experiments, but I don't want you to believe anything I say unless you've checked it out for yourself. Occasionally, I'm going to purposely say some things that are not true just to see if you can catch me. This means that you've got to really stay on your toes. By the way, did you know that I have a pet dog that can fly?" The kids went wild, refuting my claim. I said, "Why don't you believe me?" They said, "Because we've never seen a flying dog." I said, "Well, you should just trust me." They all screamed "no" in unison. I said, "Okay, what do I have to do to convince you?" They said, "Show it to us." I said, "Good answer! When you don't believe something is true, ask to see the evidence for yourself." I then confessed that I had been lying, but showed them what to ask and what to do when they encountered truth claims that they doubted.

The next thing I said was, "Okay, the first thing you need to understand is that there are two ways of understanding things--through your head and through your body. Let me show you what I mean, and let me explain how I'm going to challenge you in the future. If I ask you, 'What is the nature of a dog?' How are you going to answer me?" They responded that a dog is a mammal and has four feet, a tail, fur, etc. I said, "Yes, those are good answers, but what if asked you, 'What is the nature of a dog REALLY?' How would you answer? They remained silent, trying to figure out what I was asking. My ten-year-old daughter was in the class and she had already worked on some Zen koans, so she started barking. I said, "That's right. You don;t have to think anything. You already know what the nature of a dog REALLY is. So now, let me ask you, 'What is gravity?" One kid replied, "Well, it's what holds everything together and it's what makes things fall." Another kid said, "It's a force that pulls on things." I replied, "Yes, that's correct. But what if I asked you, 'what is gravity REALLY?' There was a silence, and I told my daughter not to answer the question. After a few moments, a kid picked up the book on his desk and dropped in on the floor. Almost instantly the other kids got it, and the room erupted in pandemonium. One kid jumped out of his desk. Another kid threw something across the room, and everyone started laughing as they caught on. I said, "Yes, you already know what gravity is REALLY, and now I'm going to let you in on a secret; not even the most famous scientist in the world knows what gravity REALLY is any better than you do. What gravity is is a mystery, but we use words like "attractive force" so that we can talk about it and think about it." We then went through a whole list of questions asking what things were from the standpoint of ideas and words and then from the viewpoint of direct experience. Some of the answers were very funny. When I asked what electricity REALLY is, one little girl said, "Come here and I'll show you." I was mystified, but I walked over to where she was sitting. She then said, "Give me your hand." She took my finger in her hand and then said, "Stick your finger in here..." and moved it toward an electrical outlet on the wall. I got a huge laugh out of that. Meanwhile, other kids were shaking to simulate being shocked.

After establishing the ground rules, I then asked, "What is the temperature in this room right now?" The room got silent, but finally one kid got up, went to look at a thermostat on the wall, and said "seventy degrees." I asked, "Is that correct?" Other kids got up to check the thermostat and all agreed with the first kid. I said, "Are you sure?" They got silent again because they could tell that I was looking for something deeper. They started looking around the room and thinking about my question. It took several minutes, but one sharp kid said, "Well, it's seventy degrees where the thermostat is." I said, "Yes. That's a fantastic observation, but remember, I asked what the temperature of the ROOM is. With a few other questions, they realized that they were going to have to do some testing. Eventually, they picked up some thermometers I had and found that the temperature on the ceiling was much warmer than on the floor, and that there was no one single temperture for the room. The room actually had microclimates based on sunlight coming through the windows, the number of children in one area, etc. From that point on they were the most alive group of students you could ever hope to interact with, and they went crazy every time I tried to throw in a false statement. Within two hours they became world-class scientists. The funniest thing was that there was a parent in the room, and she never caught on to the existential stuff or understood what was going on!

I spent about five sessions with the kids and came away convinced that if Zen Master/scientist teachers could spend a few years with kids, the kids would have a completely different understanding of the world than the understanding most of them get in conventional classrooms.

[Peter]

Oct 7, 2009 11:48:22 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I spent about five sessions with the kids and came away convinced that if Zen Master/scientist teachers could spend a few years with kids, the kids would have a completely different understanding of the world than the understanding most of them get in conventional classrooms.

Nice teaching. Thinking back to my school days, it was generally the physics teachers who showed the most childlike wonder at the universe.

Compare that to the Maths teacher who told me that calculator worked out Sin (x) by "having all the numbers already stored in it's memory". Right, lots and lots of numbers. Big memory.

We had a Computer Science teacher who told us that Engineers use Computer Aided Design to make cars that last longer. Even at the tender age of 13 we laughed at that. "No, they make cars to last just as long as they want them to last!"