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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 17:34:31 GMT -5
Careful Sharon, you may be in grave danger of taking on the appearance of a person with no contribution to the discussion here, other than trolling. You don't want to be an internet forum troll do you? My, my. Grave danger eh? Are you missing your whipping boy?Sigh....
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 18, 2013 20:02:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. With all due respect.. you haven't even gotten to the station to find out the train you think you're going to ride, never even existed.. You cannot "transcend the mind" as if it is something other than 'you', you and mind are the same.. you are trying to transcend 'ideas' and let go of mind's conditioning.. that still clear mind will amaze you, when it's not concentrating on 'one thing'.. You'll figure it out, maybe.. enjoy your method.. Be well.. Do you have a better method? If so then I'm always curious to hear it. But just so there is no misunderstanding: I'm not interested in hearing anyone's philosophies, nondual or otherwise. Hi ESM: i have a process that i teach, and with only 2 exception out of hundreds, those that apply the process have reported that they 'get it', is it 'better'? that's not a useful application of awareness, it might be useful to try it and see if it actually works, quickly and reliably.. but, like all things, if you begin with a negative expectation, you'll get a negative result. so.. i humbly ask for 'no' expectation, just the openness to allow what happens to happen, whatever that might be.. please try this several times before deciding it works or it doesn't work, a single try could be a random result even if works.. Find a comfortable and quiet place (with practice the conditions don't matter).. sit or stand with a relaxed but alive/aware posture, some might understand this posture's description as Wuji or Central Equilibrium.. allow yourself the opportunity to be still and clear, accept that it is a very real possibility and you are capable of it.. now that you are settled and comfortable, relax all of the muscles not needed to maintain the alert posture.. open the eyes, not widely like you are looking 'at' something, but in a relaxed general 'seeing' sort of way.. now, extend the index finger(s), one or both, like you're pointing, but not at anything specific.. the 'feeling' is of gentle tension along the inside/palm-side of the index finger.. maintain this posture for an interval that is comfortable for you... A useful exercise is to go through the same process when lying down, like in bed, there is a very tangible experience.. i won't describe the effects or results as that might prejudice the experience and create expectations, but.. if anyone gives this an honest effort, i am hopeful you would send me a Private Message and report your results.. the reason i ask for 'privacy' is to not influence the experiences others might have.. oh yeah, have fun, if we're not filled with awe and wonder in whatever we do, we're doing something inconsistent with what 'is'.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 18, 2013 20:25:49 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. With all due respect.. you haven't even gotten to the station to find out the train you think you're going to ride, never even existed.. You cannot "transcend the mind" as if it is something other than 'you', you and mind are the same.. you are trying to transcend 'ideas' and let go of mind's conditioning.. that still clear mind will amaze you, when it's not concentrating on 'one thing'.. You'll figure it out, maybe.. enjoy your method.. Be well.. You exhibit one of the worst of human characteristics here. You believe with absolute certainty that the peak of your own personal experience is the peak of all experience. Ot seems to be a kind of hubris, wherein when someone relates an experience that is different, or dare I say: Further than your own, your response is to tell them that their experience does not and cannot exist, because your experience is the only true one, and nothing deeper or further can be experienced by anyone other than what you (tzu) are experiencing. Have you EVER seen me tell anyone here that their experience is not actually happening? Its kinda an irrational thing to say to someone....and yet every day you tell people that they are not in fact having the experience they are describing, and that in reality they are having the experience you are having....and that the only possible experience for anyone to have is Tzu's experience. So let me be clear, as others have tried to do with you to no avail. I am not saying that your experience of clarity of mind is not valid, nor am I saying that your approach is useless or erroneous, in fact, its pretty spot on.....but I am saying that there is a "further so to speak, and I am saying that I am not relating an idea about an experience, or a supposition or a belief, or a mental embellishment. I am telling you from direct experience that I and MANY others have experienced a state of consciousness where there are no "parts" and there is no experience of a self, or an individuation, or a ME, or a personal mind that "processes" information about "what is". And I am telling you from direct clear experience that this state of consciousness, is indescribably expanded and "greater" than the consciousness thats bound to individuated perspective. Now, in your hubris you can deny this state of conciousness's existence simply because you have no personal awareness of it, but that is just your own hubris and lack of allowing the possibility that there may be a deeper and clearer and further experience than your own. But why you, or anyone else, would say to a person, and worse yet actually believe that there is no possibility of a more expanded and unified state of consciousness than the limitation of your own experience thus far in life is just beyond me. I, and others, have told you repeatedly that they have direct clear experiences of states of consciousness where no "parts" exist, no experience of individuation exist, and there is only and experience of a limitless unified whole, and that this experience is something more than being absorbed in the mentation and understanding of phenomena from the individuated perspective. Instead of asking questions about this, you call them liars or delusional, and out of some kind of ABSURDLY close minded hubris that says that tzu has not and is not experiencing this so it CANNOT exist, and therefore is just some story they are making up. Your close minded hubris and absurdity is....well...........absurd lol Is it possible for you to entertain the possibility that the folks that are describing this to you are not lying or delusional based solely on the evidence that its not an experience you are familiar with?As an aside, let me be clear....I'm not telling you about a train that I want to ride, or that I think might exist....I'm telling you about a train ride that I have taken and continue to take.....your belief that that the train does not exist is just a kind of close minded attitude that says that if I don't already know about it then it can't exist, as if you already know and have experienced all possible trains....again, the hubris of that is astounding. Regarding the bolded portion, yes it is possible to entertain that possibility, i would be untrue to my own existence if i didn't.. You are assuming that i haven't experienced exactly the same experience, why? is it because i don't use the same words and meanings that you and others do? You say: And i affirm that as a description that is consistent with my own experiences, too.. here's where we seem to differ, though.. i am also aware that without the individuated unique self/person's existence prior to that 'experience', such an experience is not possible.. it reveals the 'oneness/manyness ~ 'part/whole' relationship that IS Life experiencing its own existence.. it is an equally valid experience as the "MANY others" that have had the experience, too.. Are you even willing to openly consider the actuality of my words, or are you willing to raise a glass of hubris with the accused.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 21:10:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. You exhibit one of the worst of human characteristics here. You believe with absolute certainty that the peak of your own personal experience is the peak of all experience. Ot seems to be a kind of hubris, wherein when someone relates an experience that is different, or dare I say: Further than your own, your response is to tell them that their experience does not and cannot exist, because your experience is the only true one, and nothing deeper or further can be experienced by anyone other than what you (tzu) are experiencing. Have you EVER seen me tell anyone here that their experience is not actually happening? Its kinda an irrational thing to say to someone....and yet every day you tell people that they are not in fact having the experience they are describing, and that in reality they are having the experience you are having....and that the only possible experience for anyone to have is Tzu's experience. So let me be clear, as others have tried to do with you to no avail. I am not saying that your experience of clarity of mind is not valid, nor am I saying that your approach is useless or erroneous, in fact, its pretty spot on.....but I am saying that there is a "further so to speak, and I am saying that I am not relating an idea about an experience, or a supposition or a belief, or a mental embellishment. I am telling you from direct experience that I and MANY others have experienced a state of consciousness where there are no "parts" and there is no experience of a self, or an individuation, or a ME, or a personal mind that "processes" information about "what is". And I am telling you from direct clear experience that this state of consciousness, is indescribably expanded and "greater" than the consciousness thats bound to individuated perspective. Now, in your hubris you can deny this state of conciousness's existence simply because you have no personal awareness of it, but that is just your own hubris and lack of allowing the possibility that there may be a deeper and clearer and further experience than your own. But why you, or anyone else, would say to a person, and worse yet actually believe that there is no possibility of a more expanded and unified state of consciousness than the limitation of your own experience thus far in life is just beyond me. I, and others, have told you repeatedly that they have direct clear experiences of states of consciousness where no "parts" exist, no experience of individuation exist, and there is only and experience of a limitless unified whole, and that this experience is something more than being absorbed in the mentation and understanding of phenomena from the individuated perspective. Instead of asking questions about this, you call them liars or delusional, and out of some kind of ABSURDLY close minded hubris that says that tzu has not and is not experiencing this so it CANNOT exist, and therefore is just some story they are making up. Your close minded hubris and absurdity is....well...........absurd lol Is it possible for you to entertain the possibility that the folks that are describing this to you are not lying or delusional based solely on the evidence that its not an experience you are familiar with?As an aside, let me be clear....I'm not telling you about a train that I want to ride, or that I think might exist....I'm telling you about a train ride that I have taken and continue to take.....your belief that that the train does not exist is just a kind of close minded attitude that says that if I don't already know about it then it can't exist, as if you already know and have experienced all possible trains....again, the hubris of that is astounding. Regarding the bolded portion, yes it is possible to entertain that possibility, i would be untrue to my own existence if i didn't.. You are assuming that i haven't experienced exactly the same experience, why? is it because i don't use the same words and meanings that you and others do? You say: And i affirm that as a description that is consistent with my own experiences, too.. here's where we seem to differ, though.. i am also aware that without the individuated unique self/person's existence prior to that 'experience', such an experience is not possible.. it reveals the 'oneness/manyness ~ 'part/whole' relationship that IS Life experiencing its own existence.. it is an equally valid experience as the "MANY others" that have had the experience, too.. Are you even willing to openly consider the actuality of my words, or are you willing to raise a glass of hubris with the accused.. Be well.. I don't have any issue or disagreement with anything that you've just typed, nor do I claim that anything that you have said is false or just an idea and not your experience. What I take exception to in our recent interaction, is you saying things like: You haven't realized that the train doesn't exist" when I am relating a direct experience....you do this often with folks....i.e.....tell them that they're experience is false while yours is true....ya get kinda goofy about it. And, you interjected yourself into a pseudo conversation with me and question, wherein I was describing a method of dropping the perception of self and merging into a selfless unity with existence, and came in saying that the method I describe was all wrong for seeing whats happening in the interplay of objects. And then when I told you that the method for seeing the interplay of objects and understanding that that you counter-offered was good and effective, but its not what we are talking about, you came back with something like: Well the experience that you are talking about doesn't happen. Frankly, you argumentatively interjected yourself into a conversation, and told the participants that they were taking the wrong approach to doing something that you did not even bother to read or try to understand. Its like me talking about a really nice cake I made yesterday that I really enjoyed eating, another forum member asks for the recipe, and while I'm giving him the recipe you butt in and say "NO NO, thats the wrong way to make pancakes entirely!" And then when I tell you I am not giving a recipe for pancakes, you say: "Well you don't know anything about that cake, its just your imagination, you should make pancakes in this recope instead!" Despite the fact that I already reported that I ate this cake yesterday and really enjoyed it. With all due respect Tzu....its just a goofy exchange, and you do it a lot around here. Now, just to be clear, i think your pancakes are great, and I've tried it, and its a good recipe....but I'm interested in cake now ;-) And for the moment, so is Question. If you would like to be a part of the conversation about cake making, you might be better received if you didn't come into the conversation telling folks that their recipe (that they have already used and had success with) is wrong, and that the cake (which they have already eaten before) is imaginary ;-)
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Post by enigma on Sept 18, 2013 22:47:43 GMT -5
Hi, welcome, not formally no, clearly. Well as an informal passtime, please feel free to correct my spelling anytime you like ;-) pastime
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Post by enigma on Sept 18, 2013 23:04:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. Again, with all due respect, you are talking about something competely different than what I am discussing with Question. I am not offering a method for seeing "what is going on", or how the mind may better understand how objects are interconnected. I'm also not offering a method to "get information about what you are focusing on"....though this method can and will do that as a side effect. All of these things that you are talking about are ways to inform the mind of the individual. I am telling Question the method that I used to transcend the mind, lose conciousness of individuation, and merge into a unified conciousness with no individuation or seperation. An experience that you have stated repeatedly that you believe does not exist. You are offering alternative methods to do something different that what I am discussing here. Its as is you are not actually aware of what me and Question are talking about, or what he is actually trying to do, despite both of us stating it clearly. You might benefit, in this situation, by actually taking your own advice, and pay attention to what is "actually going on" lol On a more personal note, your whole "process" seems to be about informing your mind with clarity about what you percieve.....but have you ever considered that there might be something more to all of this than just getting more accurate information for your mind to understand? With all due respect.. you haven't even gotten to the station to find out the train you think you're going to ride, never even existed.. You cannot "transcend the mind" as if it is something other than 'you', you and mind are the same.. you are trying to transcend 'ideas' and let go of mind's conditioning.. that still clear mind will amaze you, when it's not concentrating on 'one thing'.. You'll figure it out, maybe.. enjoy your method.. Be well.. That is, of course, what we mean here by 'mind identification'.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 18, 2013 23:26:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. With all due respect.. you haven't even gotten to the station to find out the train you think you're going to ride, never even existed.. You cannot "transcend the mind" as if it is something other than 'you', you and mind are the same.. you are trying to transcend 'ideas' and let go of mind's conditioning.. that still clear mind will amaze you, when it's not concentrating on 'one thing'.. You'll figure it out, maybe.. enjoy your method.. Be well.. That is, of course, what we mean here by 'mind identification'. And, when you say, "it's all imagined", that's what i mean when i say you are imagining your beliefs and 'thinking' they are true.. rather than just looking and seeing what is actually happening, you imagine meaning and belief that simply isn't real, it's conceptual minding, favoring beliefs over actuality.. It's not "mind identification", other than to identify 'mind' as an actuality, and acknowledge its relationship with the totality of one's existence.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 23:50:43 GMT -5
Well as an informal pastime, please feel free to correct my spelling anytime you like ;-) pastime Thanks
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Post by Reefs on Sept 19, 2013 0:05:42 GMT -5
Oh. I can see the appeal of the timeless for you then. Careful Sharon, you may be in grave danger of taking on the appearance of a person with no contribution to the discussion here, other than trolling. You don't want to be an internet forum troll do you? * contains nlpee *
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Post by Reefs on Sept 19, 2013 0:07:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. With all due respect.. you haven't even gotten to the station to find out the train you think you're going to ride, never even existed.. You cannot "transcend the mind" as if it is something other than 'you', you and mind are the same.. you are trying to transcend 'ideas' and let go of mind's conditioning.. that still clear mind will amaze you, when it's not concentrating on 'one thing'.. You'll figure it out, maybe.. enjoy your method.. Be well.. That is, of course, what we mean here by 'mind identification'. ...or maybe even 'irretrievably lost in mind'?
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Post by enigma on Sept 19, 2013 2:36:58 GMT -5
That is, of course, what we mean here by 'mind identification'. ...or maybe even 'irretrievably lost in mind'? From a still mind, that seems to be 'what is'.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Sept 19, 2013 5:31:03 GMT -5
Greetings.. Do you have a better method? If so then I'm always curious to hear it. But just so there is no misunderstanding: I'm not interested in hearing anyone's philosophies, nondual or otherwise. Hi ESM: i have a process that i teach, and with only 2 exception out of hundreds, those that apply the process have reported that they 'get it', is it 'better'? that's not a useful application of awareness, it might be useful to try it and see if it actually works, quickly and reliably.. but, like all things, if you begin with a negative expectation, you'll get a negative result. so.. i humbly ask for 'no' expectation, just the openness to allow what happens to happen, whatever that might be.. please try this several times before deciding it works or it doesn't work, a single try could be a random result even if works.. Find a comfortable and quiet place (with practice the conditions don't matter).. sit or stand with a relaxed but alive/aware posture, some might understand this posture's description as Wuji or Central Equilibrium.. allow yourself the opportunity to be still and clear, accept that it is a very real possibility and you are capable of it.. now that you are settled and comfortable, relax all of the muscles not needed to maintain the alert posture.. open the eyes, not widely like you are looking 'at' something, but in a relaxed general 'seeing' sort of way.. now, extend the index finger(s), one or both, like you're pointing, but not at anything specific.. the 'feeling' is of gentle tension along the inside/palm-side of the index finger.. maintain this posture for an interval that is comfortable for you... A useful exercise is to go through the same process when lying down, like in bed, there is a very tangible experience.. i won't describe the effects or results as that might prejudice the experience and create expectations, but.. if anyone gives this an honest effort, i am hopeful you would send me a Private Message and report your results.. the reason i ask for 'privacy' is to not influence the experiences others might have.. oh yeah, have fun, if we're not filled with awe and wonder in whatever we do, we're doing something inconsistent with what 'is'.. Be well.. Thanks for the instructions. I'm not sure I understand what to do with the index finger. I extend the index finger in front of my face and point to nothing particular? Should I look at the finger, or where it's pointing, or... what should I pay attention to?
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 19, 2013 8:50:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi ESM: i have a process that i teach, and with only 2 exception out of hundreds, those that apply the process have reported that they 'get it', is it 'better'? that's not a useful application of awareness, it might be useful to try it and see if it actually works, quickly and reliably.. but, like all things, if you begin with a negative expectation, you'll get a negative result. so.. i humbly ask for 'no' expectation, just the openness to allow what happens to happen, whatever that might be.. please try this several times before deciding it works or it doesn't work, a single try could be a random result even if works.. Find a comfortable and quiet place (with practice the conditions don't matter).. sit or stand with a relaxed but alive/aware posture, some might understand this posture's description as Wuji or Central Equilibrium.. allow yourself the opportunity to be still and clear, accept that it is a very real possibility and you are capable of it.. now that you are settled and comfortable, relax all of the muscles not needed to maintain the alert posture.. open the eyes, not widely like you are looking 'at' something, but in a relaxed general 'seeing' sort of way.. now, extend the index finger(s), one or both, like you're pointing, but not at anything specific.. the 'feeling' is of gentle tension along the inside/palm-side of the index finger.. maintain this posture for an interval that is comfortable for you... A useful exercise is to go through the same process when lying down, like in bed, there is a very tangible experience.. i won't describe the effects or results as that might prejudice the experience and create expectations, but.. if anyone gives this an honest effort, i am hopeful you would send me a Private Message and report your results.. the reason i ask for 'privacy' is to not influence the experiences others might have.. oh yeah, have fun, if we're not filled with awe and wonder in whatever we do, we're doing something inconsistent with what 'is'.. Be well.. Thanks for the instructions. I'm not sure I understand what to do with the index finger. I extend the index finger in front of my face and point to nothing particular? Should I look at the finger, or where it's pointing, or... what should I pay attention to? Hi ESM: Once you have are in the relaxed, comfortable, and alert posture, sitting or standing, just extend the index finger as if pointing.. your hands can be at your side, in your lap, wherever they are comfortable.. the object of the 'pointing' is that it activates a primal internal energetic system/process.. don't pay attention to anything in particular, allow the interactive and interconnected happening to reveal itself.. kinda like the old 'Magic Eye' pictures from 20 or so years ago (google Magic Eye).. when we're not looking 'for/at something' we can see everything and the interconnected processes and relationships that are 'happening'.. Be well..
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Post by silver on Sept 19, 2013 8:53:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi ESM: i have a process that i teach, and with only 2 exception out of hundreds, those that apply the process have reported that they 'get it', is it 'better'? that's not a useful application of awareness, it might be useful to try it and see if it actually works, quickly and reliably.. but, like all things, if you begin with a negative expectation, you'll get a negative result. so.. i humbly ask for 'no' expectation, just the openness to allow what happens to happen, whatever that might be.. please try this several times before deciding it works or it doesn't work, a single try could be a random result even if works.. Find a comfortable and quiet place (with practice the conditions don't matter).. sit or stand with a relaxed but alive/aware posture, some might understand this posture's description as Wuji or Central Equilibrium.. allow yourself the opportunity to be still and clear, accept that it is a very real possibility and you are capable of it.. now that you are settled and comfortable, relax all of the muscles not needed to maintain the alert posture.. open the eyes, not widely like you are looking 'at' something, but in a relaxed general 'seeing' sort of way.. now, extend the index finger(s), one or both, like you're pointing, but not at anything specific.. the 'feeling' is of gentle tension along the inside/palm-side of the index finger.. maintain this posture for an interval that is comfortable for you... A useful exercise is to go through the same process when lying down, like in bed, there is a very tangible experience.. i won't describe the effects or results as that might prejudice the experience and create expectations, but.. if anyone gives this an honest effort, i am hopeful you would send me a Private Message and report your results.. the reason i ask for 'privacy' is to not influence the experiences others might have.. oh yeah, have fun, if we're not filled with awe and wonder in whatever we do, we're doing something inconsistent with what 'is'.. Be well.. Thanks for the instructions. I'm not sure I understand what to do with the index finger. I extend the index finger in front of my face and point to nothing particular? Should I look at the finger, or where it's pointing, or... what should I pay attention to? No need to be uptight about what to do with the finger(s). Just point from wherever your arm/hand is in the relaxed position, I would think. Iow, no need to overthink this. Just try it.
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Post by tzujanli on Sept 19, 2013 9:04:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. Thanks for the instructions. I'm not sure I understand what to do with the index finger. I extend the index finger in front of my face and point to nothing particular? Should I look at the finger, or where it's pointing, or... what should I pay attention to? No need to be uptight about what to do with the finger(s). Just point from wherever your arm/hand is in the relaxed position, I would think. Iow, no need to overthink this. Just try it. Hi Silver: Yep, i often use this process of 'pointing' in my daily activities.. at meetings, in conversations, during sports activities, whenever the usual triggers like breath awareness and posture alignment don't quite clear out the internal noise.. Be well..
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