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Post by zendancer on Sept 3, 2021 2:57:05 GMT -5
Not unless you want to imagine that it is. If the mind is quiescent, there is neither experience nor an experiencer. While these words are being read the mind isn't quiescent, is it? There is a difference between mind being quiescent and being dead. The world and all experience dies along with the death of mind. The world still appears in a quiescent mind. Your mind doesn't appear to be dead. Is it? |
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Sept 3, 2021 7:08:07 GMT -5
Not unless you want to imagine that it is. If the mind is quiescent, there is neither experience nor an experiencer. While these words are being read the mind isn't quiescent, is it? There is a difference between mind being quiescent and being dead. The world and all experience dies along with the death of mind. The world still appears in a quiescent mind. This all sounds fine to me, but here's the thing - a quiescent mind is very highly valued around these parts, and so terribly undervalued in the general population. Roy, you and ZD don't really disagree on the usefulness of a quiet mind, and while you may disagree on whether that stillness is really the whole point, or whether it is the catalyst for a realization that is not itself dependent on the presence of stillness, that is never going to be solved with this sort of discussion nor is it the point. In general most people here are probably set enough in their ways and convinced enough of certain things that they are either mostly done seeking, or at least very aware of what they might be interested in doing (if any "practice" is even involved at all). You would probably have great success sharing this message in other communities, where perhaps the level of psychological suffering is higher and your message more desperately needed, but this admittedly just my ignorant opinion and I understand if you see it differently! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2021 20:46:38 GMT -5
While these words are being read the mind isn't quiescent, is it? There is a difference between mind being quiescent and being dead. The world and all experience dies along with the death of mind. The world still appears in a quiescent mind. This all sounds fine to me, but here's the thing - a quiescent mind is very highly valued around these parts, and so terribly undervalued in the general population. Roy, you and ZD don't really disagree on the usefulness of a quiet mind, and while you may disagree on whether that stillness is really the whole point, or whether it is the catalyst for a realization that is not itself dependent on the presence of stillness, that is never going to be solved with this sort of discussion nor is it the point. In general most people here are probably set enough in their ways and convinced enough of certain things that they are either mostly done seeking, or at least very aware of what they might be interested in doing (if any "practice" is even involved at all). You would probably have great success sharing this message in other communities, where perhaps the level of psychological suffering is higher and your message more desperately needed, but this admittedly just my ignorant opinion and I understand if you see it differently! Perhaps Roy has nil interest in ‘relaying any experience’ he may have undergone because he doesn’t want to pamper curiosities ego? Is it important to expose woo woo on the correct Page when awakening leaves one firmly lodged in their their Being? |
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Post by roydop on Sept 4, 2021 13:47:16 GMT -5
While these words are being read the mind isn't quiescent, is it? There is a difference between mind being quiescent and being dead. The world and all experience dies along with the death of mind. The world still appears in a quiescent mind. Your mind doesn't appear to be dead. Is it? Nope. Just quiescent most of the time. There is still karmic momentum that is required to play out (as the remaining life of roy). If Awareness is completely "in" on Self rather than any thoughts or sensations at death, final and complete liberation occurs. |
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Post by roydop on Sept 4, 2021 13:49:20 GMT -5
Only in your mind, so maybe it's time to give your mind a rest.  So if mind does not arise, neither does THIS, correct? |
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Post by shadowplay on Sept 5, 2021 5:04:13 GMT -5
Only in your mind, so maybe it's time to give your mind a rest. So if mind does not arise, neither does THIS, correct? THIS is not conceptual, it’s a pointer. It points to the absolute immanence of Source. So of course THIS (where THIS points) cannot be dependent on mind - mind is THIS mind-ing. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 6, 2022 16:14:40 GMT -5
Just to show laughter his agreement with a recent post isn't anything new from me. Really, only one thing I write about has significance. I will bold the pertinent. (Won't touch {edit} the original). We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought.The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes. Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp |
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:48:24 GMT -5
Just to show laughter his agreement with a recent post isn't anything new from me. Really, only one thing I write about has significance. I will bold the pertinent. (Won't touch {edit} the original). We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought.The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes.Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp What you say about thought up until here shows insight, no doubt. But no, thoughts do not just magically appear. Watching thoughts as a meditative practice - if pursued in depth - reveals exactly how and why thoughts arise, in relative terms. Also, in my experience, it's always been possible to get into states of relative mental silence that are quite self-sustaining, where thoughts don't "almost immediately pop up". Perhaps you were directing that at "beginner's". But a quiet mind is not the existential truth. A quiet mind is spacious, and invites grace. A quiet mind can be a practical end, in and of itself, but that is rendering unto Caesar. A quiet mind is no guarantee of a visit from Grace. On the flip side, Grace is a lingering sort of house guest, not that she ever outstays a welcome that was never extended nor ever withdrawn. She doesn't mind if the house gets noisy, later. What can be understood, after the existential truth has been realized is that mental noise is just associations, associating. Just energy, activity, movement. Completely free of dread, with any foolishness completely free of any fool. |
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Post by JustASimpleGuy on Sept 24, 2022 18:07:38 GMT -5
Just to show laughter his agreement with a recent post isn't anything new from me. Really, only one thing I write about has significance. I will bold the pertinent. (Won't touch {edit} the original). What you say about thought up until here shows insight, no doubt. But no, thoughts do not just magically appear. Watching thoughts as a meditative practice - if pursued in depth - reveals exactly how and why thoughts arise, in relative terms. Also, in my experience, it's always been possible to get into states of relative mental silence that are quite self-sustaining, where thoughts don't "almost immediately pop up". Perhaps you were directing that at "beginner's". But a quiet mind is not the existential truth. A quiet mind is spacious, and invites grace. A quiet mind can be a practical end, in and of itself, but that is rendering unto Caesar. A quiet mind is no guarantee of a visit from Grace. On the flip side, Grace is a lingering sort of house guest, not that she ever outstays a welcome that was never extended nor ever withdrawn. She doesn't mind if the house gets noisy, later. What can be understood, after the existential truth has been realized is that mental noise is just associations, associating. Just energy, activity, movement. Completely free of dread, with any foolishness completely free of any fool. Impressions and tendencies, or from an Eastern perspective samskaras and vasanas. I suppose this can be correlated with conditioning (neuroplasticity) and behavioral psychology. When we are not actively engaging mind thoughts seem to arise unbidden. First very, very subtly and then a pattern forms and builds until it registers in attention. To me it seems that they start via deterministic mechanisms of the neural network and when they reach a certain threshold behavioral psychology kicks in and it forms a kind of feedback loop. On the positive side it can result in a pleasant daydream or perhaps even an insight or burst of creativity and on the negative side it can be something like a flash of anxiety, fear or something worse like perseveration. Of course the nexus of all this is ego, the I-maker or Ahamkara. The CEO of the enterprise. As Eckhardt Tolle would say clouds floating past in the sky, and that includes ego. All contents of Consciousness, and not the small or reflected conscious as in "I am conscious", but That which illumines "I am conscious" and even the first thought, the "I" thought, as well as the pleasant daydream, the insight, burst of creativity, anxiety, fear, perseveration. Water and wave. Formless and form. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 24, 2022 19:54:01 GMT -5
What you say about thought up until here shows insight, no doubt. But no, thoughts do not just magically appear. Watching thoughts as a meditative practice - if pursued in depth - reveals exactly how and why thoughts arise, in relative terms. Also, in my experience, it's always been possible to get into states of relative mental silence that are quite self-sustaining, where thoughts don't "almost immediately pop up". Perhaps you were directing that at "beginner's". But a quiet mind is not the existential truth. A quiet mind is spacious, and invites grace. A quiet mind can be a practical end, in and of itself, but that is rendering unto Caesar. A quiet mind is no guarantee of a visit from Grace. On the flip side, Grace is a lingering sort of house guest, not that she ever outstays a welcome that was never extended nor ever withdrawn. She doesn't mind if the house gets noisy, later. What can be understood, after the existential truth has been realized is that mental noise is just associations, associating. Just energy, activity, movement. Completely free of dread, with any foolishness completely free of any fool. Impressions and tendencies, or from an Eastern perspective samskaras and vasanas. I suppose this can be correlated with conditioning (neuroplasticity) and behavioral psychology. When we are not actively engaging mind thoughts seem to arise unbidden. First very, very subtly and then a pattern forms and builds until it registers in attention. To me it seems that they start via deterministic mechanisms of the neural network and when they reach a certain threshold behavioral psychology kicks in and it forms a kind of feedback loop. On the positive side it can result in a pleasant daydream or perhaps even an insight or burst of creativity and on the negative side it can be something like a flash of anxiety, fear or something worse like perseveration. Of course the nexus of all this is ego, the I-maker or Ahamkara. The CEO of the enterprise. As Eckhardt Tolle would say clouds floating past in the sky, and that includes ego. All contents of Consciousness, and not the small or reflected conscious as in "I am conscious", but That which illumines "I am conscious" and even the first thought, the "I" thought, as well as the pleasant daydream, the insight, burst of creativity, anxiety, fear, perseveration. Water and wave. Formless and form. Well, thanks for the reply, and welcome to the forum.  |
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