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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 31, 2013 6:00:28 GMT -5
We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement).
But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought.
The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH.
We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit.
What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes.
Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself.
sdp
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Post by topology on May 31, 2013 7:19:42 GMT -5
I want to focus in on the critical part of what you said (very clear, btw) and that is the question of what you value. The attention is going to naturally gravitate to what you value. One can experiment with engaging through awareness out of valuing experimentation, acting out of curiosity. But the default mode of operation (what happens when the attention is not intentionally and continually directed) is going to stay with thought until the valuation of thought is devalued to the point where attention shifts to direct experience.
It's not enough to conceptually think "I should value direct perception (reality) over my thoughts (about reality)". Valuation is something that happens subconsciously primarily. Your advice is in alignment with Zendancer's advice, to Attend The Actual (ATA). The complementary advice is to dig up the subconscious valuation to actively investigate it for it's truth or true value. We look at why we value what we value and consciously examine the motive. The false once realized as false falls away, often leaving a person feeling numb or in a state of shock (from having lost the value in what was valued). In this "numbness" there is an inherent shift to ATA.
That magic of evolving what you value can only be taken so far intentionally. Something that is not you personally has to erode the last bit of value you place in thought. If someone does try to shift what they value intentionally, they are building a thought-structure to dismantle other thought structures, but that thought structure cannot erode itself. No intentional action can erode that last bit of attachment to thoughts. Something beyond our control has to happen and the more we try to direct it the further we push it away.
How to recognize the point where intentional directed effort becomes anti-productive takes some awareness. And then what can be done afterwards? Other than moving with your genuine value and letting life erode at it naturally, I have no idea.
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Post by Beingist on May 31, 2013 7:42:56 GMT -5
Uh, oh. I sense a thread of text walls coming ...
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Post by laughter on May 31, 2013 8:50:27 GMT -5
How to recognize the point where intentional directed effort becomes anti-productive takes some awareness. And then what can be done afterwards? Other than moving with your genuine value and letting life erode at it naturally, I have no idea. Honesty, as piercing and unrelenting and uncompromising as can be managed, and always in the context of as much forgiveness and acceptance as can be mustered; applied over as many instants of the day as one has the strength for. To the mind this seems an exhausting proposition, but much like a regimen of cardio for the body (such as daily walks or jogging), it builds on itself and actually makes more energy available to the practitioner over time. <nondual_disclaimer> of course all of this assumes a doer and as an idea, this is seen as false, but if that illusion wasn't there at some level then of course none of this applies, which of course it actually never does </nondual_disclaimer> |
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Post by laughter on May 31, 2013 8:58:31 GMT -5
well said sdp Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. In my experience and observation of others it seems that if someone really does follow the preceding advice then an inevitable cycle starts to take hold. It follows the pattern of a damped sinusoid -- the highs get lower and the lows less low. Less awareness results in resistance which eventually draws the attention back out of the thought-dominated state. It seems like a choice to the one in the cycle but the inevitability and power of what that individual is drawn to isn't something that one can put a pricetag on. In this I prefer the metaphor of either a bloodhound following a scent or even a ballbearing dropped down a spiral track to that of a multiple-choice quiz. |
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Post by tzujanli on May 31, 2013 9:04:12 GMT -5
Greetings.. How to recognize the point where intentional directed effort becomes anti-productive takes some awareness. And then what can be done afterwards? Other than moving with your genuine value and letting life erode at it naturally, I have no idea. Honesty, as piercing and unrelenting and uncompromising as can be managed, and always in the context of as much forgiveness and acceptance as can be mustered; applied over as many instants of the day as one has the strength for. To the mind this seems an exhausting proposition, but much like a regimen of cardio for the body (such as daily walks or jogging), it builds on itself and actually makes more energy available to the practitioner over time. <nondual_disclaimer> of course all of this assumes a doer and as an idea, this is seen as false, but if that illusion wasn't there at some level then of course none of this applies, which of course it actually never does </nondual_disclaimer> That you need a 'disclaimer' reveals an attachment to 'ideas about' what oneness is believed to be.. the 'honesty' is manifested when it is realized that references to conceptual structures is what maintains the 'structure', and.. that 'structure' is the prison that separates the believer from liberation.. Be well.. |
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Post by laughter on May 31, 2013 9:07:44 GMT -5
Greetings.. Honesty, as piercing and unrelenting and uncompromising as can be managed, and always in the context of as much forgiveness and acceptance as can be mustered; applied over as many instants of the day as one has the strength for. To the mind this seems an exhausting proposition, but much like a regimen of cardio for the body (such as daily walks or jogging), it builds on itself and actually makes more energy available to the practitioner over time. <nondual_disclaimer> of course all of this assumes a doer and as an idea, this is seen as false, but if that illusion wasn't there at some level then of course none of this applies, which of course it actually never does </nondual_disclaimer> That you need a 'disclaimer' reveals an attachment to 'ideas about' what oneness is believed to be.. the 'honesty' is manifested when it is realized that references to conceptual structures is what maintains the 'structure', and.. that 'structure' is the prison that separates the believer from liberation.. Be well.. |
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Post by silence on May 31, 2013 21:06:22 GMT -5
We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought. The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes. Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp Awareness as a practice creates wacky over spiritual people that you can spot from a mile away. What most can not accept is that thought is not in any way separate and that there is no escape. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 1, 2013 8:18:03 GMT -5
I want to focus in on the critical part of what you said (very clear, btw) and that is the question of what you value. The attention is going to naturally gravitate to what you value. One can experiment with engaging through awareness out of valuing experimentation, acting out of curiosity. But the default mode of operation (what happens when the attention is not intentionally and continually directed) is going to stay with thought until the valuation of thought is devalued to the point where attention shifts to direct experience. It's not enough to conceptually think "I should value direct perception (reality) over my thoughts (about reality)". Valuation is something that happens subconsciously primarily. Your advice is in alignment with Zendancer's advice, to Attend The Actual (ATA). The complementary advice is to dig up the subconscious valuation to actively investigate it for it's truth or true value. We look at why we value what we value and consciously examine the motive. The false once realized as false falls away, often leaving a person feeling numb or in a state of shock (from having lost the value in what was valued). In this "numbness" there is an inherent shift to ATA. That magic of evolving what you value can only be taken so far intentionally. Something that is not you personally has to erode the last bit of value you place in thought. If someone does try to shift what they value intentionally, they are building a thought-structure to dismantle other thought structures, but that thought structure cannot erode itself. No intentional action can erode that last bit of attachment to thoughts. Something beyond our control has to happen and the more we try to direct it the further we push it away. How to recognize the point where intentional directed effort becomes anti-productive takes some awareness. And then what can be done afterwards? Other than moving with your genuine value and letting life erode at it naturally, I have no idea. While I consider it the case that "Truth is a pathless land", I also consider it to be the case that others who have completed the journey, have left maps. Maps are theoretical constructs, directions, or an indication of a direction. Having said that, I take the journey to be from essence (true self) to personality (false self) back to essence (the seed what's real in one) to mature essence to Real I (no-self). I agree with you up to the point of "Something that is not you personally has to erode the last bit of value you place in thought". There is a deeper aspect of self one can live through until.....well...until way down the road (in a manner of speaking). Personality/ego cannot, as you say, thought-structure cannot dismantle other though structures. But as I said, awareness and attention are prior to thought, separate from thought, and are what dismantles thought structures. They are not beyond control, they are all we actually can control. If not there would be no hope. This is why I made the point that it's very important to make this distinction between thought (plus emotions and physical actions) and awareness and attention. We have to make sure awareness and attention are not directed by thought. If thought (ego/personality) is in the drivers seat, then we can get stuck as you describe, this is actually imaginary practice, not real work. Personality does not die so easily. If one gets truly stuck, maybe you need a map or a new map. sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 1, 2013 8:24:29 GMT -5
How to recognize the point where intentional directed effort becomes anti-productive takes some awareness. And then what can be done afterwards? Other than moving with your genuine value and letting life erode at it naturally, I have no idea. Honesty, as piercing and unrelenting and uncompromising as can be managed, and always in the context of as much forgiveness and acceptance as can be mustered; applied over as many instants of the day as one has the strength for. To the mind this seems an exhausting proposition, but much like a regimen of cardio for the body (such as daily walks or jogging), it builds on itself and actually makes more energy available to the practitioner over time. <nondual_disclaimer> of course all of this assumes a doer and as an idea, this is seen as false, but if that illusion wasn't there at some level then of course none of this applies, which of course it actually never does </nondual_disclaimer> Yes laughter, the main point being there actually is more energy available. sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 1, 2013 8:31:34 GMT -5
Greetings.. Honesty, as piercing and unrelenting and uncompromising as can be managed, and always in the context of as much forgiveness and acceptance as can be mustered; applied over as many instants of the day as one has the strength for. To the mind this seems an exhausting proposition, but much like a regimen of cardio for the body (such as daily walks or jogging), it builds on itself and actually makes more energy available to the practitioner over time. <nondual_disclaimer> of course all of this assumes a doer and as an idea, this is seen as false, but if that illusion wasn't there at some level then of course none of this applies, which of course it actually never does </nondual_disclaimer> That you need a 'disclaimer' reveals an attachment to 'ideas about' what oneness is believed to be.. the 'honesty' is manifested when it is realized that references to conceptual structures is what maintains the 'structure', and.. that 'structure' is the prison that separates the believer from liberation.. Be well.. Excellent point Tzu, conceptual structures = ego/personality = prison. Until one actually feels imprisoned, there is little movement toward freedom. sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 1, 2013 8:40:52 GMT -5
We all know what thinking is, we spend the majority of our time there. Words just rattle around up there, a continuous stream of sense or nonsense, symbolic abstract representation at least once removed from reality. That's the function of the superficial layer of mind (other functions are emotion, and acts via muscular movement). But there is another way to live. What is deeper than thought? What is prior to thought? Your awareness is separate from thought. Your attention is separate from thought. The problem is that one's attention and one's awareness become the slave of thought, the deeper aspect of our being is subjected to the more shallow. Now, you can't function in the world without minimal awareness of your exterior surroundings. The question is, what do you value? Now, you have to get a taste of the difference between living mostly through thought, OTOH, and living primarily through one's awareness OTOH. We are thoroughly familiar with what it means to live through thought. You can begin exploring living through awareness by sensing, or watching one's breath. Try something simple, we all almost always have tension is our facial muscles. Right now, for a few seconds, become aware of the tension in your face. Or become aware of the pressure of your body against your chair as you sit. What happens when you try these? Thoughts almost immediately pop up. Thoughts just magically appear in the space a little above and behind your eyes. Now you have a choice, you can continue to live 'as normal', through your thoughts (which are necessarily at least once removed from reality), or you can take back your awareness, and live primarily through your awareness, secondarily through thought. But you have to really get a feel for the distinction, a taste, and value one over the other, or else you will simply disappear back into ordinary life. One thing you can try anytime when you think to do so, ask yourself where your attention is. These are just words. You have to actually explore this for yourself, find it in yourself. It is possible to find the deeper and more essential in yourself. sdp Awareness as a practice creates wacky over spiritual people that you can spot from a mile away. What most can not accept is that thought is not in any way separate and that there is no escape. If that is what to take to be the case silence.......then I'm happy for you. Real practice can create wacky in people, there is such a thing as spiritual emergency. But some people are willing to risk a little wackiness to escape........what's actually already is wackiness. If you think no escape is possible, then ego/personality/false self, has already won. sdp |
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Post by silence on Jun 1, 2013 9:26:36 GMT -5
Awareness as a practice creates wacky over spiritual people that you can spot from a mile away. What most can not accept is that thought is not in any way separate and that there is no escape. If that is what to take to be the case silence.......then I'm happy for you. Real practice can create wacky in people, there is such a thing as spiritual emergency. But some people are willing to risk a little wackiness to escape........what's actually already is wackiness. If you think no escape is possible, then ego/personality/false self, has already won. sdp Nobody is risking anything to escape. The whole thing is imagination. There isn't anything to win or lose. |
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Post by tzujanli on Jun 1, 2013 10:12:48 GMT -5
If that is what to take to be the case silence.......then I'm happy for you. Real practice can create wacky in people, there is such a thing as spiritual emergency. But some people are willing to risk a little wackiness to escape........what's actually already is wackiness. If you think no escape is possible, then ego/personality/false self, has already won. sdp Nobody is risking anything to escape. The whole thing is imagination. There isn't anything to win or lose. Well now, that makes it easy to absolve yourself of whatever you choose, convenient eh? It's the story told by those that fear risking anything, but have no reservations judging others.. You say "there isn't anything to lose", but you will choose to maintain and defend your existence.. Be well.. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 1, 2013 11:21:00 GMT -5
If that is what to take to be the case silence.......then I'm happy for you. Real practice can create wacky in people, there is such a thing as spiritual emergency. But some people are willing to risk a little wackiness to escape........what's actually already is wackiness. If you think no escape is possible, then ego/personality/false self, has already won. sdp Nobody is risking anything to escape. The whole thing is imagination. There isn't anything to win or lose. (1) Before studying Zen, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. (2) While working with my Zen Master, mountains were no longer mountains and rivers were no longer rivers. (3) Upon enlightenment, mountains were once again mountains and rivers were once again rivers. You have moved from (1) to (3), bypassing (2). (1) does not equal (3). sdp |
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