|
|
Post by silver on Mar 11, 2013 20:22:30 GMT -5
You're a wiser man than I.  Wait... you're a ... man?!  (Oh, and just a minor correction ... 'wiser than me', not 'I'). I was always good at grammar (and spelling) in school - The test, if I'm not mistaken is to put it in a sentence like such: "You're a wiser man than I (am)." vs. "You're a wiser man than me (am)." See? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 20:44:26 GMT -5
So I guess you're saying even spontaneous action is referenced to a self image? Deliberate is in reference to deliberation, and would seem to contradict spontaneity. Are there deliberate acts and non-deliberate acts? Is it possible for there to be no deliberation, and yet still act? Yes I would say it is possible, and yet its also possible for there to be deliberate. For me, as I go about my day, there are far less 'no deliberate' than there are 'deliberate'. Deliberate acts might be deliberately using imagination, deliberately shifting focus or perspective, deliberately choosing to be clean the slate, deliberately choosing to love or to be love. I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'healer', I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'coach'. I would say its all happening spontaneously for the most part. So what differentiates spontaneously deliberated from spontaneously non-deliberated? |
|
|
|
Post by Beingist on Mar 11, 2013 20:58:24 GMT -5
Wait... you're a ... man?! (Oh, and just a minor correction ... 'wiser than me', not 'I'). I was always good at grammar (and spelling) in school - The test, if I'm not mistaken is to put it in a sentence like such: "You're a wiser man than I (am)." vs. "You're a wiser man than me (am)." See? ;D Okay. I won't debate you. My sense of grammar comes from the Latin.  (But, it's good to know that you're not a man). |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 21:03:45 GMT -5
I'm saying the exploration happening on this forum is the exploration of that 'fullness'. I didn't say I'm trying to empty myself out. No. I don't think it's possible, from a personal perspective, to see how anything could happen impersonally. As an artist and song writer, I'm well aware of what it means to 'get out of the way' and allow a song to write itself or a painting to come together without the involvement of mind. My best work is the stuff that is most absent of self referential thought. There is a difference in the nature of the happenings that emanate from an impersonal perspective vs. a person one. Creating a painting is a good example of a happening that does not require mind. Reporting a post, is different in that 'minding' is inherent in it's very nature. Yes, actually, that's what I'm talking about. I guess you're familiar with the experience of writing something you didn't really intend to write, had no motivation to write what was written, and no prior thoughts leading up to a final thought to write a line. It's all wonderfully spontaneous and more often than not more beautiful than anything you could have conceived. We allow ourselves to be carried into this state, which is really a state of the absence of the 'me', when we're able to let go of our own personal motivations to direct the whole process. There is still the intention to create which forms a kind of focus of attention, but the rest is spontaneous and quite immediate. If I asked you what your motivation was for writing a particular line, you may not have an answer because, really, you weren't there to motivate it. Of course you easily come up with a story because mind is eager to fill in any blanks, but at the time you wrote it, you didn't have a story. However, I see you relegating that 'flow' experience to certain creative projects, and it seems you don't believe it can apply to other activities like reporting a post. Surely you see how a post can be written from that state, but I guess you draw the line at hitting the report button. What I suggest is that there is never a reason to return from that 'flow' state to get back to the job of running your life because you were never running it in the first place. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 21:14:45 GMT -5
Yes. Because what we're exploring is the 'fullness' that makes that emptying out impossible. One does not simply choose to 'come empty'. It's the end result of removing the clutter. Clutter can be ugly but how does one remove it without picking it up? Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. |
|
|
|
Post by silver on Mar 11, 2013 21:20:22 GMT -5
Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. You often have such clever subtle ways of making things look better for you - by acting as if (someone here's accusing you of raping children or the suggestion of something just as heinous), definitely has a tendency of those who don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. You don't care what image you have, as long as it works towards making you look innocent - which you're not. All at the same time, avoiding talking straight with people and avoiding answering questions - you'd think they were poisonous snakes, LOLOLOLOL-OL.  |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 21:25:05 GMT -5
Greetings.. So, MY prison is my beliefs about YOUR beliefs?.......Seriously?Your spiritual beliefs are virtually irrelevant to me. I'm somewhat more interested in your ability to notice what's happening moment to moment, but exploring that seems like a lot of work. LOL.. hardly, it is your beliefs about everything that are your prison.. You cannot know anything about "moment to moment", and maintain the beliefs you post.. Keys!!.. remember?? Be well.. This is what you said in an attempt to make it very clear: "I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs." If we simplify the equation so that you can understand what you said, we have: Prison: Your.... beliefs about my .....beliefs." Which is why I somewhat incredulously asked "So, MY prison is my beliefs about YOUR beliefs?" Now you're back to saying 'my prison is my beliefs', which I addressed the first time before you felt you needed to clarify. So I'll copy my first response so that we can get back on track. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 21:32:25 GMT -5
But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. You often have such clever subtle ways of making things look better for you - by acting as if (someone here's accusing you of raping children or the suggestion of something just as heinous), definitely has a tendency of those who don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. You don't care what image you have, as long as it works towards making you look innocent - which you're not. All at the same time, avoiding talking straight with people and avoiding answering questions - you'd think they were poisonous snakes, LOLOLOLOL-OL. You don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 11, 2013 21:42:21 GMT -5
You often have such clever subtle ways of making things look better for you - by acting as if (someone here's accusing you of raping children or the suggestion of something just as heinous), definitely has a tendency of those who don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. You don't care what image you have, as long as it works towards making you look innocent - which you're not. All at the same time, avoiding talking straight with people and avoiding answering questions - you'd think they were poisonous snakes, LOLOLOLOL-OL. You don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. Silver only understood a sliver of what's being said? Silver, just as a thought experiment, maybe try explaining what is being said from E's sliver, that actually thinks it's innocent, is trying to fully comprehend, does care, and is not avoiding straight talk. Just try it, see if another sliver arises that maybe you can appreciate. |
|
|
|
Post by silver on Mar 11, 2013 22:04:24 GMT -5
You don't read closely to what's being said, not fully comprehending the actuality of what's being said. Silver only understood a sliver of what's being said? Silver, just as a thought experiment, maybe try explaining what is being said from E's sliver, that actually thinks it's innocent, is trying to fully comprehend, does care, and is not avoiding straight talk. Just try it, see if another sliver arises that maybe you can appreciate. Well, I'll just go by E's siggy - I'm not going to play this round anyway. It gets really tiresome. When I'm in the dark, I feel my way just like anybody else There is no choice in the matter. Some get good at it by ignoring the signs. Some wig out and just go crazy. I just keep moving forward. I'm a mole or a vole or something like that. All that we moles or voles can do is keep on digging and gnawing our way to the light.  {For those with mole & vole problems, go to molecontrol.com} |
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Mar 11, 2013 22:18:18 GMT -5
Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. See, you just like to keep it going.. you 'need' the conflict.. you ask for it, then wallow in your self-righteous complaining.. so, there's some more, lap it up.. or, use the keys, let yourself out.. liberation can be scary for those not familiar with it, but you'll learn to appreciate it, really.. Be well.. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 22:51:42 GMT -5
Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. I've stated before that ultimately nothing bad is ever done. And if you re-read my post you will see that I asked you 3 questions and made one analogy. So what is the purpose for bringing Tzu into the discussion except to give relevance to something that your imagining is happening? Also your assertion that I'm calling you a manipulative liar is your own projection and is not the case at all. I actually believe you when you say that you don't know why you reported the posts. Isn't that what you want? You talk about content and what's really happening. Well, you were the one calling it an "Inquisition"? You were the one who said "I don't know why I reported the posts"? You were the one who said "I am done with this". Right? I've stated that my only interest is in exploring the relationship between ones philosophy and ones actions, using your reporting of posts to Peter as an 'Example'. And since you have stated that you don't know why you reported the posts, I find that the exploration of the dynamics of that would be beneficial for everyone. You have stated that 'Enigma' is empty, so where is all this resistance and need to defend him coming from? |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 11, 2013 22:56:38 GMT -5
But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. See, you just like to keep it going.. you 'need' the conflict.. you ask for it, then wallow in your self-righteous complaining.. so, there's some more, lap it up.. or, use the keys, let yourself out.. liberation can be scary for those not familiar with it, but you'll learn to appreciate it, really.. Be well.. I would say that no one can "let their self out", but that's just one screwed up idiot's pointer to the plain inexplicable fact that everyone's already OUT because no one was ever or even IN to begin with. I know, I know, bring on the judges/executioners/audience,,,,let's get this drama started.... "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Your Honor.....blah blah blah, and I hope/think I'm right." Maybe I should practice my horse stance 'er sum'm else original. God forbid ride the beast off the cliff, come what may. FWIW, E is a gadfly, stinging the ass of 30 some odd board members. It's pretty cute, btw. If you have a belief outstanding, something is said/done, and you react unconsciously (no matter how astute and civil you may sound) based on that belief,,, you've been served (i.e., it's too late). The drama goes on...and on...and on...what is that annoying "reason" one keeps getting drawn into the battle? hehe |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 23:12:18 GMT -5
Yes, actually, that's what I'm talking about. I guess you're familiar with the experience of writing something you didn't really intend to write, had no motivation to write what was written, and no prior thoughts leading up to a final thought to write a line. It's all wonderfully spontaneous and more often than not more beautiful than anything you could have conceived. We allow ourselves to be carried into this state, which is really a state of the absence of the 'me', when we're able to let go of our own personal motivations to direct the whole process. There is still the intention to create which forms a kind of focus of attention, but the rest is spontaneous and quite immediate. If I asked you what your motivation was for writing a particular line, you may not have an answer because, really, you weren't there to motivate it. Of course you easily come up with a story because mind is eager to fill in any blanks, but at the time you wrote it, you didn't have a story. Yes. Resonating like a son of a gun with all of the above. Yes. That's it exactly.  As I see it, we come out of the flow and mind jumps back in, the moment we begin expecting things to be a certain way, or judging them to be less than or somehow not what 'should' be. Essentially, the moment we look at something arising in this moment with a sense of discernment, to examine, compare, or conclude. And that coming out of the flow, is A okay. the ebb and flow of life. The ability to discern is an important/valuable/beautiful aspect of experience. Is it really one vs. the other? Flow state vs. a sense that I am working hard 'running my life'? I don't see it that way at all. I do not ever experience a sense these days of 'running my life' as I am often in the flow, and even when mind is active, I'm 'flowing' with and allowing the judgment, discernment, expectation, 'mind' in general to do it's thing in the myriad of ways it will. However, I am conscious/aware of what's happening. To connect with a sense of motivation behind an action (in particular, an action that is indicative of judgment) does not equal 'getting down to the job of running your life.' It simply amounts to being aware of mind is doing. It's very possible to see the thoughts and feelings that created the motivation, while still seeing that all of that 'just happened' without a sense of an existent 'me' to orchestrate it all. If I had lost myself in painting a picture and then suddenly picked up the painting and chucked it out the window.....that's an act that very likely has some thoughts and feelings of judgment behind it. Am I 'running my life' if I stop to note precisely 'what' thoughts and feelings arose prior to chucking my painting? I dont' see it as such. After all, The arising of the thoughts and feelings behind the act of chucking the painting, like the actual chucking of the painting, also 'just happened.' But the fact that they 'just happened' in no way impairs my ability to see them and say what they are. Being aware of and observing thoughts that precede action does not equal a sense of a someone who is diligently and actively, running the show. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 23:12:56 GMT -5
But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. I've stated before that ultimately nothing bad is ever done. And if you re-read my post you will see that I asked you 3 questions and made one analogy. So what is the purpose for bringing Tzu into the discussion except to give relevance to something that your imagining is happening? Because it's true, and noticing it is useful. Seriously, TRF, my focus hasn't changed here in all the time I've been here, and I've stated it more times than I can remember, so why do you keep asking? No you didn't. You said "And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)?" Do you understand the words you wrote? Of course you're calling me a manipulative liar. At the very least, I want you to understand what you wrote. Is that too much to ask? And?....... Fine, but first you have to stop assuming, and then denying that you're assuming. How do you know there is resistance and defense? Because you feel it in yourself? |
|
