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Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 16:09:35 GMT -5
Greetings.. Okay, so you assume that he's in prison. Besides being apparently Too Much Thinking (TMT), you know what they say about assuming... [/size] Thank you kindly, but.. don't assume you think you know what i assume.. The reference to 'prison' is likened to your "Nemesis", Greek spirit of Retribution/revenge".. no foul/no harm, here's the 'keys'.. "physician, heal thyself".. this is not directed at you, B.. mostly, a general statement of 'is'.. Be well..[/quote] When you state your assumptions, you've pretty much let the cat out of the bag.  |
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Post by andrew on Mar 11, 2013 16:22:46 GMT -5
Its what we talked about when we talked about the 'caring' on the other thread. You talked about 2 different kinds of action, I can't remember the names you gave them, and I talked about 2 different kinds of action but gave them different names. Basically, 'spontaneous purpose' is purpose that arises without the need to defend or support a self-image, so the purpose arises 'intelligently', in alignment with the situation, rather than from the 'machine' of mind, or from memory. Okay. So a purpose that has no foundation in support of a self image is actually quite a radical thingy. Even the purpose to help another, or to act in a 'selfless' way, is in support of a self image. What would such a purpose look like in terms of personal motivation? Maybe an example would help. The purpose to help another or to deliberately act in a selfless way can be part of 'spontaneous purpose'. I am not saying that it is self-image itself that is the problem as such, its the need to support or defend a self-image that is the issue. I have no issue with being Andrew, a Dad, a husband, a man, a teacher, a student. I might choose to identify with being loving, or being kind, or being compassionate, or being joyful, or being a healer, or being selfless, or whatever. Its just playing roles. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 16:49:28 GMT -5
Is that the way you see 'Enigma', as having dropped expectations, judgements, fears, needs, deceptions and manipulations? Yes. Because what we're exploring is the 'fullness' that makes that emptying out impossible. One does not simply choose to 'come empty'. It's the end result of removing the clutter. Clutter can be ugly but how does one remove it without picking it up? When you say 'yes' above, are you saying that you already have dropped all judgments, fears, needs, deceptions, expectations...?.and then on the other you seem to be saying that the emptiness is not abiding..? That sounds like a contradiction. Would you say you abide in freedom from expectation or that it comes and goes? I would say that at the point where you reported those posts, there were very much expectations and judgments in existence, so you reported, and then likely you let go of any judgment about any of that... and thus, you are now unable to recall what thoughts were arising when you were having expectations and such..? AS I see it, if you would have been emepty in the first place....the urge to report posts would never have arisen, therefore, there would have been nothing to let go of. It seems what you are sharing here E is that you are not 'always' empty...not always clear....? But that you have lapses and then 'come' to clarity and thus, empty out your cup. This is an honest attempt here on my part to understand....I'd very much appreciate it if you could respond without assuming I have any agenda other than to try to understand. Thanks.  |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 11, 2013 16:50:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. From another post, but applicable here: If you hand someone the keys to their prison, and they do not use them, who is the jailer? Be well..
1) I gratefully (or otherwise) accept the keys and free myself from prison.
2) I refuse to accept the keys and remain in prison.
Since there are no other possible outcomes from your perspective, and since these are your dancing giraffes and not mine, there is nothing to discuss. No amount of discussion can ever free me from a prison you only imagine that I am in.
I'm not quite arrogant enough to assume you are in a prison, nor that I have the keys you need to free yourself from that hypothetical prison. You seem to have a belief system that makes you very confident and somewhat pleased in an Oscar the Grouch sort of way, so I suggest you enjoy it for as long as it serves you. I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs.. you, like so many others, prefer the prison of your beliefs, it keeps freedom and clarity from ruining your self-image.. The Keys: i've already handed them to you, use them or not.. they are open, honest, direct, respectful discussion.. And yes, you are so very arrogant enough to assume so much about so many, that bell keeps ringing.. Be well.. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 17:05:27 GMT -5
Okay. So a purpose that has no foundation in support of a self image is actually quite a radical thingy. Even the purpose to help another, or to act in a 'selfless' way, is in support of a self image. What would such a purpose look like in terms of personal motivation? Maybe an example would help. The purpose to help another or to deliberately act in a selfless way can be part of 'spontaneous purpose'. I am not saying that it is self-image itself that is the problem as such, its the need to support or defend a self-image that is the issue. I have no issue with being Andrew, a Dad, a husband, a man, a teacher, a student. I might choose to identify with being loving, or being kind, or being compassionate, or being joyful, or being a healer, or being selfless, or whatever. Its just playing roles. So I guess you're saying even spontaneous action is referenced to a self image? Deliberate is in reference to deliberation, and would seem to contradict spontaneity. Are there deliberate acts and non-deliberate acts? Is it possible for there to be no deliberation, and yet still act? |
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Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 17:12:23 GMT -5
Yes. Because what we're exploring is the 'fullness' that makes that emptying out impossible. One does not simply choose to 'come empty'. It's the end result of removing the clutter. Clutter can be ugly but how does one remove it without picking it up? When you say 'yes' above, are you saying that you already have dropped all judgments, fears, needs, deceptions, expectations...?.and then on the other you seem to be saying that the emptiness is not abiding..? That sounds like a contradiction. I'm saying the exploration happening on this forum is the exploration of that 'fullness'. I didn't say I'm trying to empty myself out. No. I don't think it's possible, from a personal perspective, to see how anything could happen impersonally. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 11, 2013 17:18:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. The ongoing foundation of all my discussion with you is the assumption that I am in prison and you hold the keys. Consequently, there can be only two outcomes:
1) I gratefully (or otherwise) accept the keys and free myself from prison.
2) I refuse to accept the keys and remain in prison.
Since there are no other possible outcomes from your perspective, and since these are your dancing giraffes and not mine, there is nothing to discuss. No amount of discussion can ever free me from a prison you only imagine that I am in.
I'm not quite arrogant enough to assume you are in a prison, nor that I have the keys you need to free yourself from that hypothetical prison. You seem to have a belief system that makes you very confident and somewhat pleased in an Oscar the Grouch sort of way, so I suggest you enjoy it for as long as it serves you. I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs.. you, like so many others, prefer the prison of your beliefs, it keeps freedom and clarity from ruining your self-image.. The Keys: i've already handed them to you, use them or not.. they are open, honest, direct, respectful discussion.. And yes, you are so very arrogant enough to assume so much about so many, that bell keeps ringing.. Be well.. So, MY prison is my beliefs about YOUR beliefs?.......Seriously? Your spiritual beliefs are virtually irrelevant to me. I'm somewhat more interested in your ability to notice what's happening moment to moment, but exploring that seems like a lot of work. |
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Post by andrew on Mar 11, 2013 17:21:15 GMT -5
The purpose to help another or to deliberately act in a selfless way can be part of 'spontaneous purpose'. I am not saying that it is self-image itself that is the problem as such, its the need to support or defend a self-image that is the issue. I have no issue with being Andrew, a Dad, a husband, a man, a teacher, a student. I might choose to identify with being loving, or being kind, or being compassionate, or being joyful, or being a healer, or being selfless, or whatever. Its just playing roles. So I guess you're saying even spontaneous action is referenced to a self image? Deliberate is in reference to deliberation, and would seem to contradict spontaneity. Are there deliberate acts and non-deliberate acts? Is it possible for there to be no deliberation, and yet still act? Yes I would say it is possible, and yet its also possible for there to be deliberate. For me, as I go about my day, there are far less 'no deliberate' than there are 'deliberate'. Deliberate acts might be deliberately using imagination, deliberately shifting focus or perspective, deliberately choosing to be clean the slate, deliberately choosing to love or to be love. I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'healer', I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'coach'. I would say its all happening spontaneously for the most part. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 17:34:07 GMT -5
When you say 'yes' above, are you saying that you already have dropped all judgments, fears, needs, deceptions, expectations...?.and then on the other you seem to be saying that the emptiness is not abiding..? That sounds like a contradiction. I'm saying the exploration happening on this forum is the exploration of that 'fullness'. I didn't say I'm trying to empty myself out. No. I don't think it's possible, from a personal perspective, to see how anything could happen impersonally. As an artist and song writer, I'm well aware of what it means to 'get out of the way' and allow a song to write itself or a painting to come together without the involvement of mind. My best work is the stuff that is most absent of self referential thought. There is a difference in the nature of the happenings that emanate from an impersonal perspective vs. a person one. Creating a painting is a good example of a happening that does not require mind. Reporting a post, is different in that 'minding' is inherent in it's very nature. Reading and then Reporting posts very much is indicative of the existence of a personal perspective.....expectation...judgment...it was an act of discernment. To take an extreme example, that would be like someone attacking his neighbor while in the middle of a contentious conversation, and then saying that he had no idea why he lashed out at his neighbor. How does one read a post and then report it without the involvement of discernment, expectation and judgment? If there is absolutely no judgment....no expectation.....there is no sense that something is not as it should be.....therefore, no reporting. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 17:36:22 GMT -5
Is that the way you see 'Enigma', as having dropped expectations, judgements, fears, needs, deceptions and manipulations? Yes. Because what we're exploring is the 'fullness' that makes that emptying out impossible. One does not simply choose to 'come empty'. It's the end result of removing the clutter. Clutter can be ugly but how does one remove it without picking it up? Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 11, 2013 19:27:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs.. you, like so many others, prefer the prison of your beliefs, it keeps freedom and clarity from ruining your self-image.. The Keys: i've already handed them to you, use them or not.. they are open, honest, direct, respectful discussion.. And yes, you are so very arrogant enough to assume so much about so many, that bell keeps ringing.. Be well.. Your spiritual beliefs are virtually irrelevant to me. I'm somewhat more interested in your ability to notice what's happening moment to moment, but exploring that seems like a lot of work. LOL.. hardly, it is your beliefs about everything that are your prison.. You cannot know anything about "moment to moment", and maintain the beliefs you post.. Keys!!.. remember?? Be well.. |
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Post by Beingist on Mar 11, 2013 20:14:25 GMT -5
How does one read a post and then report it without the involvement of discernment, expectation and judgment? If there is absolutely no judgment....no expectation.....there is no sense that something is not as it should be.....therefore, no reporting. Now you know why I don't post much. |
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Post by silver on Mar 11, 2013 20:16:36 GMT -5
How does one read a post and then report it without the involvement of discernment, expectation and judgment? If there is absolutely no judgment....no expectation.....there is no sense that something is not as it should be.....therefore, no reporting. Now you know why I don't post much. You're a wiser man than I.  |
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Post by Beingist on Mar 11, 2013 20:19:24 GMT -5
Now you know why I don't post much. You're a wiser man than I. Wait... you're a ... man?!  (Oh, and just a minor correction ... 'wiser than me', not 'I'). |
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Post by silver on Mar 11, 2013 20:20:46 GMT -5
You're a wiser man than I. Wait... you're a ... man?! Nooooo, just a zilly woman. ....I may have been a man or two in a past life/s. *shrug* I'm tired of talking about the same old b.s.  |
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