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Post by tzujanli on Mar 12, 2013 0:04:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. LOL.. hardly, it is your beliefs about everything that are your prison.. You cannot know anything about "moment to moment", and maintain the beliefs you post.. Keys!!.. remember?? Be well.. This is what you said in an attempt to make it very clear: "I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs." If we simplify the equation so that you can understand what you said, we have: Prison: Your.... beliefs about my .....beliefs." Which is why I somewhat incredulously asked "So, MY prison is my beliefs about YOUR beliefs?" Now you're back to saying 'my prison is my beliefs', which I addressed the first time before you felt you needed to clarify. So I'll copy my first response so that we can get back on track. I've offered other outcomes, claiming otherwise is not accurate.. you already have the 'keys', use them or don't.. but, why do you feel the need to weave these illusions? this is a really simple process, let go of the games, just let go.. be real, for once, just be real.. Ciaran folded and sent Stepvhen and another to intimidate me, and they failed, and all i ever asked, was for direct open, honest discussion.. i am not deluded or without the patience to see this through.. there may have been a place where both Ciaran's beliefs and clarity were useful expedients to realizing what 'is' actually happening, but.. and it's the giant of all 'buts', attachment to having it 'your way, my way, any 'way', is THE obstacle to having 'it' at all.. I am asking, darn near pleading, for an opportunity for you to actually drop your 'way' and just be real.. i will eagerly put everything aside for the opportunity to explore 'with' you, to start fresh.. no beliefs, no expectations, no knowing 'this or that, no gurus, no mystics.. begin again, with a clean slate, and see what open, honest, direct respectful exploration of existence reveals.. an open process that all can see, that all can participate in, trusting the intent of starting fresh and true sincerity.. Be well.. |
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Post by enigma on Mar 12, 2013 0:22:06 GMT -5
This is what you said in an attempt to make it very clear: "I will make this very clear, no excuses for not understanding, now.. Prison: Yours and your 'Team's' beliefs about my intentions or my beliefs." If we simplify the equation so that you can understand what you said, we have: Prison: Your.... beliefs about my .....beliefs." Which is why I somewhat incredulously asked "So, MY prison is my beliefs about YOUR beliefs?" Now you're back to saying 'my prison is my beliefs', which I addressed the first time before you felt you needed to clarify. So I'll copy my first response so that we can get back on track. I've offered other outcomes, claiming otherwise is not accurate.. you already have the 'keys', use them or don't.. but, why do you feel the need to weave these illusions? this is a really simple process, let go of the games, just let go.. be real, for once, just be real.. Ciaran folded and sent Stepvhen and another to intimidate me, and they failed, and all i ever asked, was for direct open, honest discussion.. i am not deluded or without the patience to see this through.. there may have been a place where both Ciaran's beliefs and clarity were useful expedients to realizing what 'is' actually happening, but.. and it's the giant of all 'buts', attachment to having it 'your way, my way, any 'way', is THE obstacle to having 'it' at all.. I am asking, darn near pleading, for an opportunity for you to actually drop your 'way' and just be real.. i will eagerly put everything aside for the opportunity to explore 'with' you, to start fresh.. no beliefs, no expectations, no knowing 'this or that, no gurus, no mystics.. begin again, with a clean slate, and see what open, honest, direct respectful exploration of existence reveals.. an open process that all can see, that all can participate in, trusting the intent of starting fresh and true sincerity.. Be well.. I can't help you complete whatever was started at RT. I've never had any interest in what they think they're doing. I'm not associated with them in any way, nor do I share their beliefs. |
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Post by topology on Mar 12, 2013 0:33:56 GMT -5
Tzu, in your mind, how would an open honest discussion begin and play out?
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 12, 2013 1:13:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. Tzu, in your mind, how would an open honest discussion begin and play out? As if there were no prior beliefs, at all.. something like this: Hey.. i was thinking, do you ever wonder why folks don't get along? It don't make sense to get all uptight and itchy about other folks, when if we was to just work together we could get so much more done.. you ever think about stuff like that? you ever wonder 'why' folks wanna poke at each other? Hey.. you want some more Iced Tea? or, might be, there's some hot spiced cider up in the house, and we might could spice it up with a splash of Aunt Ada's 'medicinal' Rum.. you know, just to chase the chill away, and loosen-up the old gray stuff between the ears.. the chill seems to firm-up the gray stuff.. Heck, just sittin' out here by the fire-pit roastin' this turkey kinda gets me to thinking bout things, how bout you? didja ever wonder why that Hunnicut boy just sits all quiet-like, just starin' at the fire, or watchin' the creek flow by.. he don't say much, kinda like you, but.. i swear, when he does talk, that kid says some things that just makes my brain itch.... not in a bad way, mind you.. makes me wonder things like why folks don't just get along.. Look, if i'm talkin' too much just say so.. you're a lot like that Hunnicut boy, today.. no, okay.. what do you think, it's a lot easier to get along, right? Be well.. |
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Post by andrew on Mar 12, 2013 4:43:13 GMT -5
Yes I would say it is possible, and yet its also possible for there to be deliberate. For me, as I go about my day, there are far less 'no deliberate' than there are 'deliberate'. Deliberate acts might be deliberately using imagination, deliberately shifting focus or perspective, deliberately choosing to be clean the slate, deliberately choosing to love or to be love. I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'healer', I might deliberately choose to step into the role of 'coach'. I would say its all happening spontaneously for the most part. So what differentiates spontaneously deliberated from spontaneously non-deliberated? 'deliberated' involves using the mind purposefully, it involves making a conscious choice. Non-deliberated does not, its just...getting on with the day. |
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Post by andrew on Mar 12, 2013 4:48:56 GMT -5
Can you explain how your removal of clutter idea fits into the context of your reporting 8 posts to Peter? And why at every turn of the discussion you responded with denial, (I don't know what happened), to distraction, calling it (An inquisition), and then to aversion, (I'm done with this)? My interest is in the way your philosophy contradicts your egoic actions either by design or divinity. A metaphor would be like Catholic priests taking a vow of celibacy and then raping children. They either know what they are doing or it was really God's Will. But I didn't rape any children, I just reported a few posts. I know it's just an analogy but it implies something bad was done, and it is this which calls for an explanation. Your idea that I responded with denial, distraction and diversion begins at the place of calling me a manipulative liar as you search for understanding. If that's the case, you already have your answer and don't need me to fill in any blanks. This is an example of a place where it would be appropriate to say 'I'm done with this' because you imply no openness to further discussion. IOW, you're not really asking questions, you're preaching. I find Tzu does this on a pretty regular basis as well. Well, you still haven't explained your motivation for reporting them. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 5:35:05 GMT -5
See, you just like to keep it going.. you 'need' the conflict.. you ask for it, then wallow in your self-righteous complaining.. so, there's some more, lap it up.. or, use the keys, let yourself out.. liberation can be scary for those not familiar with it, but you'll learn to appreciate it, really.. Be well.. I would say that no one can "let their self out", but that's just one screwed up idiot's pointer to the plain inexplicable fact that everyone's already OUT because no one was ever or even IN to begin with. I know, I know, bring on the judges/executioners/audience,,,,let's get this drama started.... 
You claim to know a fact about reality, and also claim you're a screwed up idiot.
However, each person is entitled to their preferences regarding topics and issues
regardless of what others may think of the person or the items raised.
If you perceive that judges,executioners and audiences are elements of drama, then you do, i don't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 7:23:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. Tzu, in your mind, how would an open honest discussion begin and play out? As if there were no prior beliefs, at all.. something like this: Hey.. i was thinking, do you ever wonder why folks don't get along? It don't make sense to get all uptight and itchy about other folks, when if we was to just work together we could get so much more done.. you ever think about stuff like that? you ever wonder 'why' folks wanna poke at each other? Hey.. you want some more Iced Tea? or, might be, there's some hot spiced cider up in the house, and we might could spice it up with a splash of Aunt Ada's 'medicinal' Rum.. you know, just to chase the chill away, and loosen-up the old gray stuff between the ears.. the chill seems to firm-up the gray stuff.. Heck, just sittin' out here by the fire-pit roastin' this turkey kinda gets me to thinking bout things, how bout you? didja ever wonder why that Hunnicut boy just sits all quiet-like, just starin' at the fire, or watchin' the creek flow by.. he don't say much, kinda like you, but.. i swear, when he does talk, that kid says some things that just makes my brain itch.... not in a bad way, mind you.. makes me wonder things like why folks don't just get along.. Look, if i'm talkin' too much just say so.. you're a lot like that Hunnicut boy, today.. no, okay.. what do you think, it's a lot easier to get along, right? Be well.. This is a fascinating exchange. When I read Top's query "Tzu, in your mind, how would an open honest discussion begin and play out?" I immediately thought well that's a good start right there. And then I read Tzu's reply which has me scratching my head a little. It seems totally imagined, like a fictional snip from a story. One reason starting a discussion with a fictional scene might be problematic is that someone could then reply as a fictional character making stuff up. It would seem to compromise the intended purpose of open and honest. One could hide behind a caricature, for example. |
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Post by topology on Mar 12, 2013 8:51:33 GMT -5
Greetings.. Tzu, in your mind, how would an open honest discussion begin and play out? As if there were no prior beliefs, at all.. something like this: Hey.. i was thinking, do you ever wonder why folks don't get along? It don't make sense to get all uptight and itchy about other folks, when if we was to just work together we could get so much more done.. you ever think about stuff like that? you ever wonder 'why' folks wanna poke at each other? Hey.. you want some more Iced Tea? or, might be, there's some hot spiced cider up in the house, and we might could spice it up with a splash of Aunt Ada's 'medicinal' Rum.. you know, just to chase the chill away, and loosen-up the old gray stuff between the ears.. the chill seems to firm-up the gray stuff.. Heck, just sittin' out here by the fire-pit roastin' this turkey kinda gets me to thinking bout things, how bout you? didja ever wonder why that Hunnicut boy just sits all quiet-like, just starin' at the fire, or watchin' the creek flow by.. he don't say much, kinda like you, but.. i swear, when he does talk, that kid says some things that just makes my brain itch.... not in a bad way, mind you.. makes me wonder things like why folks don't just get along.. Look, if i'm talkin' too much just say so.. you're a lot like that Hunnicut boy, today.. no, okay.. what do you think, it's a lot easier to get along, right? Be well.. Here's what I see when I read your examples: 1) rambling 2) Wondering about things 3) Scenery Scenery like a campfire or sitting on the front porch with access to a liqueur cabinet are not going to happen on zee interwebs. Rambling seems to be more of a personality thing than anything else. Can't fault E for not having a fidgety rambling personality. Which leaves wondering about things. Enigma has his view of things, just like you have your view of things. I stopped wondering why my belly button accumulates lint a while ago. After you contemplate things for a while and get a lay of the land, you stop wondering about it. I think what you're complaining about with Enigma is that you feel like he has a lot of pretense. But what would be more pretentious: presenting himself as he does now, or putting on a persona which looks closer to what you want him to look like? Should he pretend that he hasn't looked at things and doesn't have the understanding that he does? Are you asking him to set aside his insights and life experience for the sake of playing as if he hasn't made certain observations and conclusions? Are you not creating a pretense in asking Enigma to present himself and come to a discussion in a different way than he already does? Open Honest Discussion Enigma is Honest as far as I can tell. Honest with how he views things. He doesn't hold back or compromise what he has to say. What other kind of honesty are you wanting from him? Discussion. I haven't seen Enigma back away from any kind of discussion. He's willing to engage long past when others might abandon discussion due to conflict or lack of common ground. Open. That seems to be then the point of contention. Is Enigma "open". Open to what? Changing his understanding? Changing his disposition? Changing his beliefs or conclusions? Let me turn the questions around. Is it possible to make yourself be open? Or is that creating a pretense? If someone says they're willing to change their beliefs, is it true? Or are they just willing to change the beliefs they are not invested in? The willingness is either there or it isn't. The openness is either there or it isn't. Asking the conscious mind to force or create a willingness/openness is a pretense. The conscious mind doesn't have direct control over the sub-conscious. Let me make a proposal. If you approach someone with the intent of having an open honest discussion, and they have the same intent, then it will happen. If they are not capable, then at least the way you approach them has templated an alternative way of being in their minds and as you continue to approach them in that way then you shift their tendency towards open and honest discussion as well. However, if you approach someone under a pretense, which you are approaching Enigma with, then you are not anchoring the intention of having an open honest discussion and there is no room for it happening. Here is the message I hear you giving Enigma: "You are not open and honest enough for me to have what I consider to be an open and honest conversation with you." This is a pretense, however. You're saying "You need to change before I am willing to engage and share myself with you." You are saying the words "open and honest" but I don't feel like you are being open and honest. You say you want it, but you don't bring it. If open and honest discussion is what you want, then you bring it. You can't expect anyone else to change first. It is through your action and demonstration of the way you want to interact with others that will shift the manner of interaction that happens. If you attack someone, you are telling them that you want an enemy. If you sit by someone's side and engage them open and honestly, you are telling them that you want a friend. Even if they perceive themselves as your enemy, if you hold that space open and relate to them in friendship, they will eventually undergo an energy shift. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 12, 2013 8:58:51 GMT -5
I would say that no one can "let their self out", but that's just one screwed up idiot's pointer to the plain inexplicable fact that everyone's already OUT because no one was ever or even IN to begin with. I know, I know, bring on the judges/executioners/audience,,,,let's get this drama started....
You claim to know a fact about reality, and also claim you're a screwed up idiot.
However, each person is entitled to their preferences regarding topics and issues
regardless of what others may think of the person or the items raised.
If you perceive that judges,executioners and audiences are elements of drama, then you do, i don't.
Right, there's no need for drama, except that it keeps one's universe from collapsing. Most wouldn't want that! hehe No, I actually claim to know very little, if anything, about "reality", and I sure don't know what you mean by that word. By many worldly people's standards, this dream character is considered an idiot for seeing the way it does, and sometimes trying to explain that. No biggie, as you say; each pillar of salt is entitled. "The judges, executioners, and audience" is just an allusion. Perhaps for comic effect, which seems to go un-noticed around here as of late, or maybe it's just a way to point at the parallels of how we often don't notice or aren't conscious of our "reactions". It reminds me a bit of how when I'd ask someone about the meaning of the Rolling Stones song "Sympathy for the Devil". A lot of people would say/assume it's about the devil, even be able to sing all the words, and it's not even that detailed of a song. Hidden in plain sight, embedded right there in the unconscious thought process. "But what's confusing you is the nature of my game" -Jagger/Richards |
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 12, 2013 9:55:41 GMT -5
Greetings..
Swell, okay.. so we'll start with the preconceived notions of how this conversation plays out.. i would ask y'all to think about your objections to the format.. it allows you to let go of 'your' preconceptions and speak through the awareness of someone that none of the 'minding' we suffer from.. i will not further address that matter, though.. let's begin with formal inquiry, NO preconceptions.
Why do people choose conflict when cooperation is always the more productive choice.
Be well..
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Post by enigma on Mar 12, 2013 11:39:30 GMT -5
So what differentiates spontaneously deliberated from spontaneously non-deliberated? 'deliberated' involves using the mind purposefully, it involves making a conscious choice. Non-deliberated does not, its just...getting on with the day. How is "using the mind purposefully, it involves making a conscious choice" spontaneous as opposed to non-spontaneous? |
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Post by andrew on Mar 12, 2013 11:46:07 GMT -5
Its using the mind as a tool and like any tool, it can be used spontaneously (i.e absent of the need to defend self-image).
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Post by enigma on Mar 12, 2013 11:50:10 GMT -5
See, you just like to keep it going.. you 'need' the conflict.. you ask for it, then wallow in your self-righteous complaining.. so, there's some more, lap it up.. or, use the keys, let yourself out.. liberation can be scary for those not familiar with it, but you'll learn to appreciate it, really.. Be well.. I would say that no one can "let their self out", but that's just one screwed up idiot's pointer to the plain inexplicable fact that everyone's already OUT because no one was ever or even IN to begin with. I know, I know, bring on the judges/executioners/audience,,,,let's get this drama started.... "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Your Honor.....blah blah blah, and I hope/think I'm right." Maybe I should practice my horse stance 'er sum'm else original. God forbid ride the beast off the cliff, come what may. FWIW, E is a gadfly, stinging the ass of 30 some odd board members. It's pretty cute, btw. If you have a belief outstanding, something is said/done, and you react unconsciously (no matter how astute and civil you may sound) based on that belief,,, you've been served (i.e., it's too late). The drama goes on...and on...and on...what is that annoying "reason" one keeps getting drawn into the battle? hehe E-Gads!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 11:56:41 GMT -5
It seems like there's disagreement over whether ST is an arena for gadflyism (within bounds) or whether it should be a more general exploration of spirituality, where there is no gadflyism. Those that do not like being stung by gadflies seem to think that this should be a general site. Those that realize that the sting is of their own doing welcome the stings as an exploration of spirituality (?) <-- overtly and knowingly showing my bias there.  |
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