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Post by silver on Jan 30, 2013 14:01:37 GMT -5
You're holding onto your own pet beliefs. You're not open to learning how and why Arisha has these strong feelings about Tolle, etc. I am very open to hearing why she has these views on Tolle. However she did not start out with explaining her views and at no point bothered to justify them. Do I need to ask Arisha why she thinks Tolle and his methods are ugly? If you're going to come out and say something on the order of "Mother Teresa is a selfish deluded sleeper.", shouldn't you give some reasoning along with that statement in order to explain what you mean so that people don't get the impression that you're a bigot? My point is this: There are much kinder and more loving ways of critiquing Tolle and his methodology. Arisha claims to be about intentionally making effort towards being loving and kind. Arisha fails to practice what she preaches. All I did was point that out. Arisha, why do you see Tolle and his method as ugly and neurotic? Arisha sees something amiss in a LOT of things. And she expresses her seeing with the opposite of kindness and lovingness. I would be happy to hear why Arisha sees ugliness in God's creations. You're right, I didn't ask her to explain herself. Instead I pointed out that the way she expresses herself is inconsistent with the message she is trying to convey. Do I think that I have something to learn from Arisha when she talks about the ugliness she sees in an ugly way? no. So I don't bother asking for her to explain herself. I noticed that you didn't ask for her to explain herself either. Why is that? Plus, you've been leaning on me lately, and putting down how I myself see certain things and discouraging me from seeing things as I see them. You're certainly more of a gentleman about it than certain others, but I see you changing for the worse - or seeing a side of you I never quite was able to see before. Yes, I have been pushing on you. I take it that on this forum we're allowed to challenge how others see things. Where else are you going to go to be able to give and receive such valuable interactions? Most other forums require that everyone be cordial and polite and keep things at the level of pseudo-community. We also tend to get angry and frustrated and resent the swimmers that come by and poke pin holes in our inflated flotation devices while coasting in the deep end of the pool. I push on you because I care about you Silver. I know you don't interpret it that way. But that is how it is intended. This is another point I noticed that I didn't address: The more two peeps are alike (Arisha and Enigma), the more likely they are to clash. So, that explains that pretty well. I didn't answer the part of why I didn't ask her and I honestly have to say that although we've been able to have pleasant enough exchanges, I see her as a bit of a prickly pear and sometimes feel like I have to walk on eggshells around both of them. I figure it may come out sooner or later as to why she sees Tolle in this light. They're both sort of like landmines on occasion. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2013 14:12:45 GMT -5
This is another point I noticed that I didn't address: The more two peeps are alike (Arisha and Enigma), the more likely they are to clash. So, that explains that pretty well. I didn't answer the part of why I didn't ask her and I honestly have to say that although we've been able to have pleasant enough exchanges, I see her as a bit of a prickly pear and sometimes feel like I have to walk on eggshells around both of them. I figure it may come out sooner or later as to why she sees Tolle in this light. They're both sort of like landmines on occasion. ;D ;D I was just thinking about the whole site membership being in a gathering Hall of some sort with a live band. I would recognize figgy, andrew, charlie gee, and zendancer without an introduction. We'd probably be the one's moving about the space doing greetings and introductions when we're not dancing our @sses off. But after midnight. 'rishi and phroggy would be out in the lobby fully engaged in a Ralph and Alice Kramden episode of the Honeymooners. It just makes me chuckle thinking about it... ;D ;D |
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Post by silver on Jan 30, 2013 14:16:02 GMT -5
This is another point I noticed that I didn't address: The more two peeps are alike (Arisha and Enigma), the more likely they are to clash. So, that explains that pretty well. I didn't answer the part of why I didn't ask her and I honestly have to say that although we've been able to have pleasant enough exchanges, I see her as a bit of a prickly pear and sometimes feel like I have to walk on eggshells around both of them. I figure it may come out sooner or later as to why she sees Tolle in this light. They're both sort of like landmines on occasion. ;D ;D I was just thinking about the whole site membership being in a gathering Hall of some sort with a live band. I would recognize figgy, andrew, charlie gee, and zendancer without an introduction. We'd probably be the one's moving about the space doing greetings and introductions when we're not dancing our @sses off. But after midnight. 'rishi and phroggy would be out in the lobby fully engaged in a Ralph and Alice Kramden episode of the Honeymooners. It just makes me chuckle thinking about it... ;D ;D That IS funny!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2013 14:22:05 GMT -5
;D I was just thinking about the whole site membership being in a gathering Hall of some sort with a live band. I would recognize figgy, andrew, charlie gee, and zendancer without an introduction. We'd probably be the one's moving about the space doing greetings and introductions when we're not dancing our @sses off. But after midnight. 'rishi and phroggy would be out in the lobby fully engaged in a Ralph and Alice Kramden episode of the Honeymooners. It just makes me chuckle thinking about it... ;D ;D That IS funny! I would know it was you, too, sil. You'd be the one with the impish grin and the fiery eyes....  |
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Post by silver on Jan 30, 2013 14:27:12 GMT -5
That IS funny! I would know it was you, too, sil. You'd be the one with the impish grin and the fiery eyes.... Oh! Uh, friendly fiery eyes....green, too. When I imagine the main peeps getting together, it's always at a big park pot luck - just watch out for the tomato dishes.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2013 14:38:50 GMT -5
Oh! Uh, friendly fiery eyes....green, too. When I imagine the main peeps getting together, it's always at a big park pot luck - just watch out for the tomato dishes. Yup, they were friendly, once I talked ya' into taking dem shades off.  Thanks for the heads up on the tomato dishes. And who brought the blue jello? ;D |
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Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2013 14:43:26 GMT -5
This is another point I noticed that I didn't address: The more two peeps are alike (Arisha and Enigma), the more likely they are to clash. So, that explains that pretty well. I didn't answer the part of why I didn't ask her and I honestly have to say that although we've been able to have pleasant enough exchanges, I see her as a bit of a prickly pear and sometimes feel like I have to walk on eggshells around both of them. I figure it may come out sooner or later as to why she sees Tolle in this light. They're both sort of like landmines on occasion. ;D ;D I was just thinking about the whole site membership being in a gathering Hall of some sort with a live band. I would recognize figgy, andrew, charlie gee, and zendancer without an introduction. We'd probably be the one's moving about the space doing greetings and introductions when we're not dancing our @sses off. But after midnight. 'rishi and phroggy would be out in the lobby fully engaged in a Ralph and Alice Kramden episode of the Honeymooners. It just makes me chuckle thinking about it... ;D ;D ;D ;D Cool image. Ive had stuff like this pop into my head too. When I was younger, most of my friends wanted to go to the pub and talk over beers, which was fine in its own way, but my idea of fun was going out dancing for the night....talking was close to the bottom of the list of things I wanted to do on a night out. Maybe I am making up for that these days on spiritual forums hehe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2013 15:10:43 GMT -5
This is another point I noticed that I didn't address: The more two peeps are alike (Arisha and Enigma), the more likely they are to clash. So, that explains that pretty well. I didn't answer the part of why I didn't ask her and I honestly have to say that although we've been able to have pleasant enough exchanges, I see her as a bit of a prickly pear and sometimes feel like I have to walk on eggshells around both of them. I figure it may come out sooner or later as to why she sees Tolle in this light. They're both sort of like landmines on occasion. ;D ;D I was just thinking about the whole site membership being in a gathering Hall of some sort with a live band. I would recognize figgy, andrew, charlie gee, and zendancer without an introduction. We'd probably be the one's moving about the space doing greetings and introductions when we're not dancing our @sses off. But after midnight. 'rishi and phroggy would be out in the lobby fully engaged in a Ralph and Alice Kramden episode of the Honeymooners. It just makes me chuckle thinking about it... ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by topology on Jan 30, 2013 16:33:35 GMT -5
Are you saying that counsellors are outside the Self? I was seeing one. I sometimes need help getting perspective on my emotional hangups. When the system gets a wrench in its gears and I'm too frustrated/stressed to see clearly, asking someone else to look at the situation with me is practical. I take it that you don't consider that to fall under the 'self-improvement' banner then? I'm sort of curious, but can't quite find the right question to ask....hmmm....When you are frustrated/stressed (not seeing clearly), how does the counsellor help you to get to the 'seeing clearly'? For example, does s/he ask you to question your beliefs, does s/he connect you to a particular truth of something, does s/he sit quietly with you and meditate? A year ago it was a male psychologist and I was seeing him because I had trouble getting myself to focus on my grad work. I would indulge in distractions like watching TV, posting on internet forums *cough cough*, and over eating. I was avoiding many things, unhappiness with my life circumstances, including my kids, my wife, and a few other things. The psychologist's approach was more of a behavioral repatterning through making lists and checking things off the list and in seeing what you had accomplished there would be some sense of satisfaction with the job done, easing of tension and so on. His argument, which was valid and correct, is that it is less net work to maintain things ahead of time instead of having to cope with the mess after procrastination. I worked with him for several months before he moved away, and there was moderate success. The next psychologist I stopped seeing because there was just no common ground to communicate on for me. I feel that my issue has primarily been emotional and that I had been having difficulty processing traumatic life events at a young age. I'm functional enough without processing them, except that every now and then the tension builds, I have an emotional blow out and then can continue again. Right now I'm working with a friend of mine to processes that deeper emotional archetypal stuff. The languaging we're using is in the framework of aborted soul-contracts which left unprocessed residual emotions. The technique is mostly I'll bring up the emotional tension and my friend will ask me probing questions to evoke the nature of the tension, so we are framing it in a story and relating it to past events. Consciously recognizing what it has been related to has been very helpful in processing the emotion. To answer your line of questioning, in my view, does someone need to have a perfectly immaculate, clean and pure, pristine subconscious or psyche in order to be self-realized? My answer is no. Someone can be self-realized while still having unprocessed emotional baggage. I'm not as functional as I would like to be, need to be, to support a healthy family so I am addressing those issues to varying degrees and in different ways. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2013 16:58:10 GMT -5
I take it that you don't consider that to fall under the 'self-improvement' banner then? I'm sort of curious, but can't quite find the right question to ask....hmmm....When you are frustrated/stressed (not seeing clearly), how does the counsellor help you to get to the 'seeing clearly'? For example, does s/he ask you to question your beliefs, does s/he connect you to a particular truth of something, does s/he sit quietly with you and meditate? A year ago it was a male psychologist and I was seeing him because I had trouble getting myself to focus on my grad work. I would indulge in distractions like watching TV, posting on internet forums *cough cough*, and over eating. I was avoiding many things, unhappiness with my life circumstances, including my kids, my wife, and a few other things. The psychologist's approach was more of a behavioral repatterning through making lists and checking things off the list and in seeing what you had accomplished there would be some sense of satisfaction with the job done, easing of tension and so on. His argument, which was valid and correct, is that it is less net work to maintain things ahead of time instead of having to cope with the mess after procrastination. I worked with him for several months before he moved away, and there was moderate success. The next psychologist I stopped seeing because there was just no common ground to communicate on for me. I feel that my issue has primarily been emotional and that I had been having difficulty processing traumatic life events at a young age. I'm functional enough without processing them, except that every now and then the tension builds, I have an emotional blow out and then can continue again. Right now I'm working with a friend of mine to processes that deeper emotional archetypal stuff. The languaging we're using is in the framework of aborted soul-contracts which left unprocessed residual emotions. The technique is mostly I'll bring up the emotional tension and my friend will ask me probing questions to evoke the nature of the tension, so we are framing it in a story and relating it to past events. Consciously recognizing what it has been related to has been very helpful in processing the emotion. To answer your line of questioning, in my view, does someone need to have a perfectly immaculate, clean and pure, pristine subconscious or psyche in order to be self-realized? My answer is no. Someone can be self-realized while still having unprocessed emotional baggage. I'm not as functional as I would like to be, need to be, to support a healthy family so I am addressing those issues to varying degrees and in different ways. Thanks for sharing. Interesting. You explored Sedona Method? I did a weekend training group several years ago, I found it useful and I saw that it had really good results with others at the group, particularly this one guy that had anger blow outs. With regard to your last paragraph, I don't know what your idea of being functional and having a healthy and functional family is, but has it occurred to you that maybe you are just not naturally cut out for the kind of life that maybe you are imagining is 'healthy and functional'? When I went to counselling it was because I was struggling to function in the way that I thought I should be functioning. As it turned out, I eventually realized that I was basically trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, in the sense that I just don't fit the society idea of what is 'functional', and realized that most of my stress was in the trying to be 'functional'. The more I came to accept myself, the less and less I fit that mould, but after a while it didn't matter, and it seems that life has moulded itself to suit me in a way that I didn't anticipate back when I was struggling. I think I can see why you were interested in the 'community' idea you had. |
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Post by topology on Jan 30, 2013 17:49:04 GMT -5
A year ago it was a male psychologist and I was seeing him because I had trouble getting myself to focus on my grad work. I would indulge in distractions like watching TV, posting on internet forums *cough cough*, and over eating. I was avoiding many things, unhappiness with my life circumstances, including my kids, my wife, and a few other things. The psychologist's approach was more of a behavioral repatterning through making lists and checking things off the list and in seeing what you had accomplished there would be some sense of satisfaction with the job done, easing of tension and so on. His argument, which was valid and correct, is that it is less net work to maintain things ahead of time instead of having to cope with the mess after procrastination. I worked with him for several months before he moved away, and there was moderate success. The next psychologist I stopped seeing because there was just no common ground to communicate on for me. I feel that my issue has primarily been emotional and that I had been having difficulty processing traumatic life events at a young age. I'm functional enough without processing them, except that every now and then the tension builds, I have an emotional blow out and then can continue again. Right now I'm working with a friend of mine to processes that deeper emotional archetypal stuff. The languaging we're using is in the framework of aborted soul-contracts which left unprocessed residual emotions. The technique is mostly I'll bring up the emotional tension and my friend will ask me probing questions to evoke the nature of the tension, so we are framing it in a story and relating it to past events. Consciously recognizing what it has been related to has been very helpful in processing the emotion. To answer your line of questioning, in my view, does someone need to have a perfectly immaculate, clean and pure, pristine subconscious or psyche in order to be self-realized? My answer is no. Someone can be self-realized while still having unprocessed emotional baggage. I'm not as functional as I would like to be, need to be, to support a healthy family so I am addressing those issues to varying degrees and in different ways. Thanks for sharing. Interesting. You explored Sedona Method? I did a weekend training group several years ago, I found it useful and I saw that it had really good results with others at the group, particularly this one guy that had anger blow outs. With regard to your last paragraph, I don't know what your idea of being functional and having a healthy and functional family is, but has it occurred to you that maybe you are just not naturally cut out for the kind of life that maybe you are imagining is 'healthy and functional'? When I went to counselling it was because I was struggling to function in the way that I thought I should be functioning. As it turned out, I eventually realized that I was basically trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, in the sense that I just don't fit the society idea of what is 'functional', and realized that most of my stress was in the trying to be 'functional'. The more I came to accept myself, the less and less I fit that mould, but after a while it didn't matter, and it seems that life has moulded itself to suit me in a way that I didn't anticipate back when I was struggling. I think I can see why you were interested in the 'community' idea you had. I haven't explored the Sadona Method yet, can you provide me a good reference on it. Here's why I have to go for functional: 1) My internal tension is in sympathetic resonance with my external environment: Dirty/messy/chaotic house => Internal emotional tension. 2) I HATE CLEANING MY HOUSE ;D So in order for me to be at peace emotionally, I need to get functional about keeping my house clean. I'm not in control of the emotionally building up tension. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2013 19:09:45 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. Interesting. You explored Sedona Method? I did a weekend training group several years ago, I found it useful and I saw that it had really good results with others at the group, particularly this one guy that had anger blow outs. With regard to your last paragraph, I don't know what your idea of being functional and having a healthy and functional family is, but has it occurred to you that maybe you are just not naturally cut out for the kind of life that maybe you are imagining is 'healthy and functional'? When I went to counselling it was because I was struggling to function in the way that I thought I should be functioning. As it turned out, I eventually realized that I was basically trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, in the sense that I just don't fit the society idea of what is 'functional', and realized that most of my stress was in the trying to be 'functional'. The more I came to accept myself, the less and less I fit that mould, but after a while it didn't matter, and it seems that life has moulded itself to suit me in a way that I didn't anticipate back when I was struggling. I think I can see why you were interested in the 'community' idea you had. I haven't explored the Sadona Method yet, can you provide me a good reference on it. Here's why I have to go for functional: 1) My internal tension is in sympathetic resonance with my external environment: Dirty/messy/chaotic house => Internal emotional tension. 2) I HATE CLEANING MY HOUSE ;D So in order for me to be at peace emotionally, I need to get functional about keeping my house clean. I'm not in control of the emotionally building up tension. Then we do have something in common there. My situation is a little different right now because my parents have a cleaner come in twice a week to do the whole house (and plus its not my house), but in the houses that we have lived in, in the last few years, it has been essential for us to keep our living environment very basic and functional. We don't collect stuff, we don't have anything for ornamental value, we really have had, by western standards, very little. We have taught the kids to look after their own stuff and they keep it all tidy, and they also enjoy contributing to looking after the house (excellent!). Quite often they will ask to hoover or do dishes or whatever. If my living environment was like most 'normal' environments, I would also experience tension. We have it like this because it suits us. Simple, ordered and without clutter...either physically or energetic. There is no sense of anything being held onto. If you are a bit like me, then I highly recommend simplifying if you can. Though might be best to check with your wife before you start throwing stuff out ;D I will get back to you with a link. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2013 19:27:26 GMT -5
Okay, bit of info here: www.consciousnessjunkie.com/sedona-method/There are lots of youtube videos detailing the method, but haven't watched them so I can't recommend one in particular. Looks like Hale, the guy that 'runs' it these days, has a movie coming out about it too. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 30, 2013 19:52:21 GMT -5
No I don't think this place is for a specific set of beliefs, however I see this place as a place where people can confront eachother openly. I guess you could take that as a leaning. I've never taken this place to be about "non-duality" as I have no idea what non-duality is. What am I holding onto, Silver? What am I not completely open about? What am I being snobbish about? You're holding onto your own pet beliefs. You're not open to learning how and why Arisha has these strong feelings about Tolle, etc. I think she's wrong on Tolle, myself. I don't think there's anything so terrible about him and I've only read his two main books so I don't know just everything about him or his teachings, yet she evidently sees something amiss about them. What Arisha sees is what Arisha sees. If you are willing to say flat out she's wrong for seeing what she sees, that's not being completely open to possibly learning why that is - and that seems rather snobbish to me. I trried for quite a while to understand Arisha's dislike of most teachers, and some folks here. I think I'm pretty much done trying. Not only is it a very ugly process, it's a one-way process in which there seems to be little or no attempt to understand me. I don't assume that her judgments of Tolle are based on actual information any more than her judgments of me are. Top has a good focus on community and communicating in ways that minimize the potential for reactivity. I've enjoyed his attempts with you and others and I've also enjoyed watching him deal with the boundaries of that approach. In some ways he has more patience than I do and I mean to commend him. However, Figs and others have talked about special ways of getting through without causing upset, and it seems to me this is what Top has been trying to do. One of the problems is that the message is easily compromised, which Reefs has talked about a few times. Another problem is that a trusting relationship must be maintained with one who bases that trust on never being told anything that may be interpreted as hurtful. On a few occasions it looks like you issuing a kind of warning to Top that your trust is about to be withdrawn because he has violated that contract the moment he says something clearly enough for you to hear it. This has also been my experience, and my experience of others who tried various versions of this approach. What you see in others who you judge to be most horrendous in regard to 'style' is the abandonment of style in the interest of truth. This abandonment doesn't mean purposeful unkindness, but it's also not pandering. Many of the messages you hear have no emotional content in them at all until you imagine they do. It cannot be the job of the messenger to insure your ongoing contentment with the message. That's something you must learn to do for yourself. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 30, 2013 19:58:38 GMT -5
You're holding onto your own pet beliefs. You're not open to learning how and why Arisha has these strong feelings about Tolle, etc. I think she's wrong on Tolle, myself. I don't think there's anything so terrible about him and I've only read his two main books so I don't know just everything about him or his teachings, yet she evidently sees something amiss about them. What Arisha sees is what Arisha sees. If you are willing to say flat out she's wrong for seeing what she sees, that's not being completely open to possibly learning why that is - and that seems rather snobbish to me. I trried for quite a while to understand Arisha's dislike of most teachers, and some folks here. I think I'm pretty much done trying. Not only is it a very ugly process, it's a one-way process in which there seems to be little or no attempt to understand me. I don't assume that her judgments of Tolle are based on actual information any more than her judgments of me are. Top has a good focus on community and communicating in ways that minimize the potential for reactivity. I've enjoyed his attempts with you and others and I've also enjoyed watching him deal with the boundaries of that approach. In some ways he has more patience than I do and I mean to commend him. However, Figs and others have talked about special ways of getting through without causing upset, and it seems to me this is what Top has been trying to do. One of the problems is that the message is easily compromised, which Reefs has talked about a few times. Another problem is that a trusting relationship must be maintained with one who bases that trust on never being told anything that may be interpreted as hurtful. On a few occasions it looks like you issuing a kind of warning to Top that your trust is about to be withdrawn because he has violated that contract the moment he says something clearly enough for you to hear it. This has also been my experience, and my experience of others who tried various versions of this approach. What you see in others who you judge to be most horrendous in regard to 'style' is the abandonment of style in the interest of truth. This abandonment doesn't mean purposeful unkindness, but it's also not pandering. Many of the messages you hear have no emotional content in them at all until you imagine they do. It cannot be the job of the messenger to insure your ongoing contentment with the message. That's something you must learn to do for yourself. I'm going to corroborate this from E, silver. Pretty much nails what's been going on, as I see it, also (though I have even less patience than E to even write such a post  ). |
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