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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2012 1:27:30 GMT -5
Im not sure what you mean when you say you want 'Me to disappear', and it may have been a convenient figure of speech, but presumably you want to be able to recognize when your kids call out to you i.e. when your kids call out to you, you want to be able to recognize 'me' in relation to 'them' and ask them what they want. In some activities it is cool to experience the complete disappearance of 'Me', but in day to day life, it isnt always practical or loving for total disappearance. Some remnant of 'appearance' (as opposed to 'disappearance') can be a good thing. I guess what Im suggesting is that sometimes it is helpful to look clearly at what we really want and expect from this process. Come on Andrew, you do know what I mean right? We are reading the same forum? You know, loosing the sense of a seperate self. I usually recommend that you bring your lawyer along to your meetings with Andrew. Hehe. |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 1:29:27 GMT -5
Thealflake, I know what you're saying. Over the last 6 months I've read enough on non-duality, listened to countless you-tube vids and been to a live Satsang. I've had realizations, I've even seen there's no Me! It's just ridiculous, yet here I am feeling like not much has changed. On a day to day basis the Me is still alive and kicking, so I guess until that realization really kicks in I was kind of looking to do something to help things along. The most useful thing I think you could do at this point is to recognize that you don't actually have a clue what "helping things along" even means. Nobody actually has a clue what's coming next, where things will end up and what 'all of this' is supposed to look like. If you look closely you will likely find that there's an arrogance behind this and this arrogance can not remain hidden. It's the very same arrogance that's rejecting your current experience as 'not it' and categorizing thoughts, feelings and experiences as good and bad or more or less aligned with this 'enlightenment business'. The same arrogance that's really just the 'Me' in one costume declaring that the 'Me' in the other costume needs to get lost so that a past experience, realization or imagined ideal can be met. Arrogant? Moi?? No I'm just kidding, it's this not knowing business... Rest in not knowing as Unmani says. |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 1:33:47 GMT -5
esponja ......You are on the right track watching simple activities, washing dishes, brushing teeth, cooking, gettinbg stuff out of the frig, walking to the car, standing in line at the bank, grocery store. Don't think of it as trying to achieve anything. Your attention and your awareness are your links to a deeper aspect of self. OTOH, every thought you have is from your superficial self, ego. Thoughts are just tape recordings. You mind can cut and splice the recordings in the brain on the spot so that they seem alive and real, spontaneous. This is the you you think you are. You can decide who you wish to be. Observing and watching through attention and awareness must become a deep love, you just have to enjoy doing it, if thoughts will ever lessen in power and duration. You can notice thoughts, but very hard to really observe. You can notice emotions, but very hard to observe. Also, thoughts will either take you to the past (through memory) or the future (through imagination). OTOH, the body always exists in the present moment. So, in the beginning, best to observe sensations (what you see, hear, touch, taste and smell) and what the body does (how the muscles move the body), like washing dishes. Actually, ego/personality/cultural recordings, cease to exist in the present moment. You are actually making new recordings (although this isn't the purpose) when you live in the present moment. This is why ego continually jumps back into control by activating thoughts, it's like a survival mechanism, and it's unconscious, automatic. So, just keep coming back to watching washing the dishes. Anytime you can watch like this, you are actually taking the energy out of ego/personality. Just keep coming back. Eventually you will come to a clear and silent mind.....maybe 5,6, 7-10 seconds. Only then can you really decide if you like it better, or the continual chatter of the mind. But, then, I think you already know.......(It's totally cool.......)... Just keep coming back to watching washing.......... And you might want to read what I wrote to jeff yesterday on Spiritual Teachers, The Rapid and Direct Means to Eternal Bliss, # 6, 7:03 PM Thanks. I won't reply to every post as got to get on now, but Encouragement was needed and encouragement was greatfully received, thank you. As long as I know to stick with it and that everone (or most) experienced the same at first and most importantly know that...in the words of Manuel of Faulty Towers...I know Nothing! |
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Post by andrew on Mar 20, 2012 3:27:43 GMT -5
Im not sure what you mean when you say you want 'Me to disappear', and it may have been a convenient figure of speech, but presumably you want to be able to recognize when your kids call out to you i.e. when your kids call out to you, you want to be able to recognize 'me' in relation to 'them' and ask them what they want. In some activities it is cool to experience the complete disappearance of 'Me', but in day to day life, it isnt always practical or loving for total disappearance. Some remnant of 'appearance' (as opposed to 'disappearance') can be a good thing. I guess what Im suggesting is that sometimes it is helpful to look clearly at what we really want and expect from this process. Come on Andrew, you do know what I mean right? We are reading the same forum? You know, loosing the sense of a seperate self. I really wasnt trying to be awkward, Im just trying to look at the expectations here....I mean you dont want to be working towards something that either a) isnt possible, or b) isnt what you really want anyway, do you? Practically speaking, when your kid calls out to you, and you recognize your name and that you are being called, do you think that that can happen without any sense at all of your individuality? Maybe it would help if I say what I experience, and see if that resonates with you. I experience myself as connected to all things and all people at all times. However, I do experience there being 'another', I do experience a sense of there being an 'me here' and 'you there'. So, although I dont experience myself as separate (or unconnected) in any way from anyone or anything else, neither would I say that all sense of there being a 'Me' has permanently disappeared. I still sense myself, an individuality, in relation to 'another' at times, but its not a strong abiding sense of 'Me' (or self), its more a periphery or fleeting sense that appears and disappears regularly on a moment by moment basis. Does that resonate, or are you looking for something different to that? |
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Post by andrew on Mar 20, 2012 3:59:40 GMT -5
Come on Andrew, you do know what I mean right? We are reading the same forum? You know, loosing the sense of a seperate self. I usually recommend that you bring your lawyer along to your meetings with Andrew. Hehe. My interrogation lamp is at the ready! (j/k esponja, Im really just trying to be helpful) |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 5:32:09 GMT -5
Come on Andrew, you do know what I mean right? We are reading the same forum? You know, loosing the sense of a seperate self. I really wasnt trying to be awkward, Im just trying to look at the expectations here....I mean you dont want to be working towards something that either a) isnt possible, or b) isnt what you really want anyway, do you? Practically speaking, when your kid calls out to you, and you recognize your name and that you are being called, do you think that that can happen without any sense at all of your individuality? Maybe it would help if I say what I experience, and see if that resonates with you. I experience myself as connected to all things and all people at all times. However, I do experience there being 'another', I do experience a sense of there being an 'me here' and 'you there'. So, although I dont experience myself as separate (or unconnected) in any way from anyone or anything else, neither would I say that all sense of there being a 'Me' has permanently disappeared. I still sense myself, an individuality, in relation to 'another' at times, but its not a strong abiding sense of 'Me' (or self), its more a periphery or fleeting sense that appears and disappears regularly on a moment by moment basis. Does that resonate, or are you looking for something different to that? Andrew, I don't think you were trying to be awkward at all but a little suprised that you didn't get what I meant. From what I know, once the strong sense of being an individual person falls away, what's left is the simple things in life to fully enjoy by being present, there instead of the illusionary world we create. I'll leave it to the experts on here to correct me if I'm wrong. You sound like you're in a good place and that's great. I'm fine but getting caught up in crappy thoughts and now what's worse is I'm being caught up in not wanting those thoughts which is actually worse than the thoughts themselves. That's why I'm serious about this and asked for encouragement. Now since this morning, I managed to be present without so much chatter and it was nice, peaceful, felt the breeze on my face and enjoyed making a cup of tea, listened to the sound of the kettle watched the water change colour etc. ( My daughter then threw up so wasn't too peaceful then- lol) |
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Post by sharon on Mar 20, 2012 6:06:41 GMT -5
( My daughter then threw up so wasn't too peaceful then- lol) Peacefully clearing up puke does take a little practice, I tend to look for help from grandma with this one  |
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Post by andrew on Mar 20, 2012 6:19:33 GMT -5
I really wasnt trying to be awkward, Im just trying to look at the expectations here....I mean you dont want to be working towards something that either a) isnt possible, or b) isnt what you really want anyway, do you? Practically speaking, when your kid calls out to you, and you recognize your name and that you are being called, do you think that that can happen without any sense at all of your individuality? Maybe it would help if I say what I experience, and see if that resonates with you. I experience myself as connected to all things and all people at all times. However, I do experience there being 'another', I do experience a sense of there being an 'me here' and 'you there'. So, although I dont experience myself as separate (or unconnected) in any way from anyone or anything else, neither would I say that all sense of there being a 'Me' has permanently disappeared. I still sense myself, an individuality, in relation to 'another' at times, but its not a strong abiding sense of 'Me' (or self), its more a periphery or fleeting sense that appears and disappears regularly on a moment by moment basis. Does that resonate, or are you looking for something different to that? Andrew, I don't think you were trying to be awkward at all but a little suprised that you didn't get what I meant. From what I know, once the strong sense of being an individual person falls away, what's left is the simple things in life to fully enjoy by being present, there instead of the illusionary world we create. I'll leave it to the experts on here to correct me if I'm wrong. You sound like you're in a good place and that's great. I'm fine but getting caught up in crappy thoughts and now what's worse is I'm being caught up in not wanting those thoughts which is actually worse than the thoughts themselves. That's why I'm serious about this and asked for encouragement. Now since this morning, I managed to be present without so much chatter and it was nice, peaceful, felt the breeze on my face and enjoyed making a cup of tea, listened to the sound of the kettle watched the water change colour etc. ( My daughter then threw up so wasn't too peaceful then- lol) That all sounds good to me, and it sounds like you are doing just fine. I like feeling the wind on my face too sometimes and I like watching water swirl around in the bath, and your morning certainly sounds very pleasing (and I think its probably quite normal to experience some degree of adverse reaction to throw up!). For me, what is important, whether I am feeling the breeze or not, is that the connection is maintained. To this end (and this might sound strange). I would be (and am) happy to sacrifice sense perceptions sometimes in order to maintain connectivity. As I see it, sense perceptions may well be linked to connecting, and our ability to pay attention to sense perceptions when we desire to may well correlate with the degree to which we experience connection to all that is, but sensory perception and connection are not exactly the same thing. As you suggest, its crappy thoughts that are the problem, perhaps not just 'thought'. |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 6:49:49 GMT -5
Andrew, I don't think you were trying to be awkward at all but a little suprised that you didn't get what I meant. From what I know, once the strong sense of being an individual person falls away, what's left is the simple things in life to fully enjoy by being present, there instead of the illusionary world we create. I'll leave it to the experts on here to correct me if I'm wrong. You sound like you're in a good place and that's great. I'm fine but getting caught up in crappy thoughts and now what's worse is I'm being caught up in not wanting those thoughts which is actually worse than the thoughts themselves. That's why I'm serious about this and asked for encouragement. Now since this morning, I managed to be present without so much chatter and it was nice, peaceful, felt the breeze on my face and enjoyed making a cup of tea, listened to the sound of the kettle watched the water change colour etc. ( My daughter then threw up so wasn't too peaceful then- lol) That all sounds good to me, and it sounds like you are doing just fine. I like feeling the wind on my face too sometimes and I like watching water swirl around in the bath, and your morning certainly sounds very pleasing (and I think its probably quite normal to experience some degree of adverse reaction to throw up!). For me, what is important, whether I am feeling the breeze or not, is that the connection is maintained. To this end (and this might sound strange). I would be (and am) happy to sacrifice sense perceptions sometimes in order to maintain connectivity. As I see it, sense perceptions may well be linked to connecting, and our ability to pay attention to sense perceptions when we desire to may well correlate with the degree to which we experience connection to all that is, but sensory perception and connection are not exactly the same thing. As you suggest, its crappy thoughts that are the problem, perhaps not just 'thought'. What do you mean when you talk about Connection? What you will probably like to hear is that I'm seeing some manifestation of thoughts, it's probably because I'm becoming more aware but sometimes it is quite crazy (from the mundane to the insane). |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 6:53:01 GMT -5
( My daughter then threw up so wasn't too peaceful then- lol) Peacefully clearing up puke does take a little practice, I tend to look for help from grandma with this one We don't have anyone at hand unfortunately, I just thought of an idea; 'rent-a-nan' that'd work well for Expats and immigrants or anyone in need! I guess I'll really know I'm enlightened when I can peacefully clean up spew along with no longer having an aversion to penisroaches! Lol 😃☺ |
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Post by sharon on Mar 20, 2012 7:04:16 GMT -5
Peacefully clearing up puke does take a little practice, I tend to look for help from grandma with this one We don't have anyone at hand unfortunately, I just thought of an idea; 'rent-a-nan' that'd work well for Expats and immigrants or anyone in need! I guess I'll really know I'm enlightened when I can peacefully clean up spew along with no longer having an aversion to penisroaches! Lol 😃☺ Yeah yeah It will feel surprising though, it will happen. I remember seeing one of those exoskeleton dudes walking along the pavement in Durban, South Africa, one time. It was so big that people were moving out of it's way. A kinda respect developed for them from that moment on |
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Post by andrew on Mar 20, 2012 7:17:21 GMT -5
That all sounds good to me, and it sounds like you are doing just fine. I like feeling the wind on my face too sometimes and I like watching water swirl around in the bath, and your morning certainly sounds very pleasing (and I think its probably quite normal to experience some degree of adverse reaction to throw up!). For me, what is important, whether I am feeling the breeze or not, is that the connection is maintained. To this end (and this might sound strange). I would be (and am) happy to sacrifice sense perceptions sometimes in order to maintain connectivity. As I see it, sense perceptions may well be linked to connecting, and our ability to pay attention to sense perceptions when we desire to may well correlate with the degree to which we experience connection to all that is, but sensory perception and connection are not exactly the same thing. As you suggest, its crappy thoughts that are the problem, perhaps not just 'thought'. What do you mean when you talk about Connection? What you will probably like to hear is that I'm seeing some manifestation of thoughts, it's probably because I'm becoming more aware but sometimes it is quite crazy (from the mundane to the insane). Well, what I mean is that I no longer experience a sense of existing as distinctly separate from anything else. I no longer experience myself as existing as an objective knower or observer of an external world that exists outside of 'me'. I no longer experience an abiding and distinct sense of me 'here' (and you 'there'). The boundary between 'me' and 'you' has been blurred, and there is an abiding sense of 'connection' or 'connectivity' to the all. Having said that, if someone I know sees me on the other side of the street and calls my name, I still experience a sense of there being something 'other' than me. I still respond to the call. So....whereas in the old days, I used to experience separation as dominant (and connection as being vaguely in the background), these days the connection is dominant and the separation is vaguely on the periphery. And I experience this connection whether there is thought-ing happening (as it is now I am talking to you) or whether I am feeling the breeze on my face. For me, one is not necessarily better than the other. As long as the thoughts arise primarily from connection rather than from separation (or ego), I am quite happy to be thought-ing -the thought-ing doesnt interfere with the connection. A clue when thoughts are arising from separation is that they are crappy thoughts (for example sulky thoughts tend to be crappy thoughts), and not 'inspired' thoughts. If I am thinking crappy thoughts, then I might well shift my attention to the breeze, or I might well shift my attention to a wider perspective. Or I might do something else entirely (there are lots of different ways of dealing with crappy thoughts). |
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Post by esponja on Mar 20, 2012 7:18:33 GMT -5
We don't have anyone at hand unfortunately, I just thought of an idea; 'rent-a-nan' that'd work well for Expats and immigrants or anyone in need! I guess I'll really know I'm enlightened when I can peacefully clean up spew along with no longer having an aversion to penisroaches! Lol 😃☺ Yeah yeah It will feel surprising though, it will happen. I remember seeing one of those exoskeleton dudes walking along the pavement in Durban, South Africa, one time. It was so big that people were moving out of it's way. A kinda respect developed for them from that moment on Seriously? That's crazy. |
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Post by sharon on Mar 20, 2012 7:28:12 GMT -5
Yeah yeah It will feel surprising though, it will happen. I remember seeing one of those exoskeleton dudes walking along the pavement in Durban, South Africa, one time. It was so big that people were moving out of it's way. A kinda respect developed for them from that moment on Seriously? That's crazy. It feels like a bit of a dream though anything that happened once upon a time, starts to feel like that. Though yeah it was what was seen on that street. A fondness develops when we see other folks treat anything with respect. There was no need to trouble it, folks just moved  |
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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2012 11:05:36 GMT -5
Come on Andrew, you do know what I mean right? We are reading the same forum? You know, loosing the sense of a seperate self. I really wasnt trying to be awkward, Im just trying to look at the expectations here....I mean you dont want to be working towards something that either a) isnt possible, or b) isnt what you really want anyway, do you? Practically speaking, when your kid calls out to you, and you recognize your name and that you are being called, do you think that that can happen without any sense at all of your individuality? Maybe it would help if I say what I experience, and see if that resonates with you. I experience myself as connected to all things and all people at all times. However, I do experience there being 'another', I do experience a sense of there being an 'me here' and 'you there'. So, although I dont experience myself as separate (or unconnected) in any way from anyone or anything else, neither would I say that all sense of there being a 'Me' has permanently disappeared. I still sense myself, an individuality, in relation to 'another' at times, but its not a strong abiding sense of 'Me' (or self), its more a periphery or fleeting sense that appears and disappears regularly on a moment by moment basis. Does that resonate, or are you looking for something different to that? You experience yourself as connected to everything? |
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