|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 27, 2011 13:05:18 GMT -5
Nice weather today.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Sept 27, 2011 13:38:11 GMT -5
question, trf,
THIS is as plain as the nose on your face.
|
|
|
|
Post by Portto on Sept 27, 2011 18:25:27 GMT -5
an old firefighter i workout with at the gym grumbles frequently: "Every day above the grass is a plus." Right. This is similar to you not necessarily wanting to be always happy. In fact, most people that I know are perfectly satisfied to experience ups and downs, as long as there is some sort of guarantee that it's not going to end. |
|
|
|
Post by question on Sept 27, 2011 19:35:28 GMT -5
question, trf, THIS is as plain as the nose on your face. What is as plain as the nose on my face? Oh, you mean that thingy which is always prior to and that one can't be aware of? (...did you really think that my problem is that I believe the holy grail to be hidden and tricky?) |
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 27, 2011 20:38:03 GMT -5
Lastly, is there anything else you think I should look at specifically? Okay, lets try this. The idea that life sucks is the search for motivation that I've been talking about. Life only sucks AS a movement of mind projecting into past and future, which is not to suggest that life might really suck and we're playing a game of not thinking about it. It means that there literally is no problem until mind invents one. I suspect that you've noticed how when things are going well, there are subtle thoughts about what might be wrong, what needs to be done or what can be improved and the like. Ironically, these thoughts are most likely to occur in the background of your happiest times. We often justify those thoughts with the idea that we don't want to crash too hard when things start going wrong (hehe) but these thoughts are, themselves, the 'going wrong'. This is why we oscillate between good times and bad times. Fundamental to the movement of dualistic experience itself is this need for motivation. Notice that experience is a movement only, and so we seek something, and when we find it, the movement stops and we invent another movement, which requires imagining what is needed or what is wrong. Imagining this is what leads to the experience of lack and unhappiness, but at least we have a new movement toward something, which we hope will lead to our goal and some more happiness, and so on. So what I'm suggesting is that Truth realization is the collapse of all motivation. No place to go, no goal to accomplish, no dualistic happiness to be found, which mind interprets as no movement. Now life sucks and it's pointless and we're on the verge of depression, all because the happy/unhappy roller coaster has slowed to a crawl and is threatening to stop. This stopping, or emptiness, is of course very auspicious, but what I've been suggesting is that mind wants to escape this stopping at all cost, and so it takes one glance at the open expanse of effortless beingness, and looks for some kind of movement. In this case, it finds it in the idea that life sucks and something has to be done about it, like maybe finding effortless beingness that mind just now turned away from. ;D Okay, I'll look at this. It seems that awareness is really locking onto the whole movement of aversion and desire anyways. Aversion is simple. Don't run. Open up to everything fully, etc. But what I'm curious about is what to do with desire. Desire still arises. I think it would be silly to chase desire full steam, yet it doesn't seem right to push it away all the time either. I mean, I hear of people becoming celibate and crap like that, but that sounds like a game of pretend or just the desire to be desire-less. Or is it more important to look at the attachment to, or the belief in the fulfillment of, desire? Or, crap, does any of this even matter at all? Maybe ego is just trying to be clever here. I figure that all I can do is do my best to plant the seeds of awakening (even though this may be an illusion), and leave the rest up to the universe. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2011 20:48:44 GMT -5
Okay, lets try this. The idea that life sucks is the search for motivation that I've been talking about. Life only sucks AS a movement of mind projecting into past and future, which is not to suggest that life might really suck and we're playing a game of not thinking about it. It means that there literally is no problem until mind invents one. I suspect that you've noticed how when things are going well, there are subtle thoughts about what might be wrong, what needs to be done or what can be improved and the like. Ironically, these thoughts are most likely to occur in the background of your happiest times. We often justify those thoughts with the idea that we don't want to crash too hard when things start going wrong (hehe) but these thoughts are, themselves, the 'going wrong'. This is why we oscillate between good times and bad times. Fundamental to the movement of dualistic experience itself is this need for motivation. Notice that experience is a movement only, and so we seek something, and when we find it, the movement stops and we invent another movement, which requires imagining what is needed or what is wrong. Imagining this is what leads to the experience of lack and unhappiness, but at least we have a new movement toward something, which we hope will lead to our goal and some more happiness, and so on. So what I'm suggesting is that Truth realization is the collapse of all motivation. No place to go, no goal to accomplish, no dualistic happiness to be found, which mind interprets as no movement. Now life sucks and it's pointless and we're on the verge of depression, all because the happy/unhappy roller coaster has slowed to a crawl and is threatening to stop. This stopping, or emptiness, is of course very auspicious, but what I've been suggesting is that mind wants to escape this stopping at all cost, and so it takes one glance at the open expanse of effortless beingness, and looks for some kind of movement. In this case, it finds it in the idea that life sucks and something has to be done about it, like maybe finding effortless beingness that mind just now turned away from. ;D Okay, I'll look at this. It seems that awareness is really locking onto the whole movement of aversion and desire anyways. Aversion is simple. Don't run. Open up to everything fully, etc. But what I'm curious about is what to do with desire. Desire still arises. I think it would be silly to chase desire full steam, yet it doesn't seem right to push it away all the time either. I mean, I hear of people becoming celibate and crap like that, but that sounds like a game of pretend or just the desire to be desire-less. Or is it more important to look at the attachment to, or the belief in the fulfillment of, desire? Or, crap, does any of this even matter at all? Maybe ego is just trying to be clever here. I figure that all I can do is do my best to plant the seeds of awakening (even though this may be an illusion), and leave the rest up to the universe. I was trying to describe how and why desire arises, along with the futility and contradiction of this movement. What happens do desire if all of this is clearly seen? Nothing can be done, but there's a lot that can be noticed. |
|
|
|
Post by ernie on Sept 27, 2011 20:50:45 GMT -5
I sense we have to ask ourselves this about desire....
Do we serve our desires, or do our desires serve us?
peace
|
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2011 20:56:06 GMT -5
Might be a good question to ask about mind in general.
|
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 27, 2011 21:27:41 GMT -5
Well, thanks E.
Ixnay on celibacy and starvation then. Phew!
I'll stick with the noticing.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonl on Sept 27, 2011 23:03:00 GMT -5
On the desire ticket: I sometimes wonder if we're talking about the same thing. The question of person/no person, and the thought mechanics which flow from the "imagined answer", are like rocket fuel for delusion stacking. I'm not a person so theres no one to desire anything anyway, which of course is simply the mind identified mind deluding itself that it doesn't want what it clearly does want, which is to say thinking this way or that way albeit without anybody behind the wheel.
Mind identification is necessitated by mind splitting. When mind wants to think along two different lines, it splits itself when the only clear answer is to put the gun down, which does entail a "stopping of sorts", which is only to say no more pretending to be anything. The mind identified mind does not want to be not mind identified, or not delusional, or whatever. It wants to be something, somebody, anything, and the carrot on the end of the stick is named control. Mind wants to control mind states, which simply means controlling itself in the name of a never ending blinged out dualistic experience which doesn't exist for anybody in particular. Nobody in particular actually exists, so its only a "matter of time" before the control issue is seen as moot and grounded in delusion.
If thought is spontaneous, beyond anyone's control, how can "mind want to think along two different lines"? The obvious answer is that it can't. There isn't even one mind to begin with. The mind literally needs a mind split to "exist as something separate"(pretend to exist meaning). Noticing mind splits brings them together, if of course there is willingness to close the gap, which does sometimes necessitate choice on the relative path, which does not imply control, but instead, delusion transcendence in its purest form. If you want something(which doesnt imply delusion, but does imply imagination), and dont want it at the same time(which does imply delusion), there is a banana split hiding out somewhere, you just have to notice where, which doesnt actually require anyone to do anything, which isn't a paradox.
Now, desire and seeking. I think some lines need to be drawn here for the sake of understanding. Would you say that mind thinks when it wants to think? If so, we certainly can't say "that" is futile. Mind seeking happiness is mind splitting, and suppressing that movement could easily arise from the communcation barrier in between the delusion median, which is even more mind splitting, which kinda explains the whole delusion stacking phenomena. I think Ivory is right, that going for desire full steam isnt the way to go, but more that, allowing whatever is "geared up to happen" to unfold in a "manner aimed at reducing mind splitting" until there is no more mind, no more choices, no more person might kinda sorta put an end to this suffering/seeking happiness business. Choices are redundant, but desire isnt chosen. Fighting it is a choice belonging to somebody, and thats what can be noticed.
|
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2011 23:04:32 GMT -5
Well, thanks E. Ixnay on celibacy and starvation then. Phew! I'll stick with the noticing. Yeah Buddha tried that stuff and decided they didn't work so well, and doing the opposite didn't work either. Fortunately, we don't have to re-invent the wheel every generation unless we want to. The 'middle way' just means, 'Kids, don't do this at home'. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2011 23:20:11 GMT -5
Yes, mind splitting can and should come to an end. Any form of self control can be looked at to see where mind has moved in opposition to itself, and the insanity cured.
|
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 27, 2011 23:48:53 GMT -5
Jason...
Are you talking to me here? I don't see that as the case in this situation. I've caught this mind in way too many lies, and I am well aware of that tendency.
I'm not really sure what you are talking about with this mind split business.
I don't think desire is the enemy so to speak. It's the attachment, or the belief that one's desire's will make them complete or result in lasting fulfillment that needs to be looked at.
Just today I saw a cute girl at my new job and asked her for a post it note. Next thing I know... my mind is obsessing over her, imagining how I'm going to ask her out, introducing her to my family, and moving in with her (all that over a post it note and a smile, lol). So, I sat down at the coffee shop and busted out the pen to find out exactly what was going on there. What I found was the belief that a woman would make me happy. I also found contradicting thoughts (I think E pointed this out a bit ago) that said I would most likely get tired of her and choose to watch tv when I lost interest (or maybe E didn't point that out and I'm just a sh!t-head).
I have no intentions of pretending that I don't desire her. In fact, since the spiritual search started, I have had almost zero interactions with girls. I am beginning to wonder what it would be like to have a relationship where I'm somewhat conscious.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonl on Sept 28, 2011 0:05:13 GMT -5
"Are you talking to me here? I don't see that as the case in this situation. I've caught this mind in way too many lies, and I am well aware of that tendency."
LOL not at all. I dont see you stacking delusions at all, akchully. Its something i discuss for the delusionally stacked piles of poop who believe they arent people but clearly think otherwise, a form of mind splitting.
"Just today I saw a cute girl at my new job and asked her for a post it note. Next thing I know... my mind is obsessing over her, imagining how I'm going to ask her out, introducing her to my family, and moving in with her (all that over a post it note and a smile, lol). So, I sat down at the coffee shop and busted out the pen to find out exactly what was going on there."
LOL classic dude.
"I also found contradicting thoughts (I think E pointed this out a bit ago) that said I would most likely get tired of her and choose to watch tv when I lost interest (or maybe E didn't point that out and I'm just a sh!t-head)."
Yea contradicting thought patterns is kinda the foundation of mind splitting.
"I have no intentions of pretending that I don't desire her."
Even if you did it wouldnt be conscious or you pretending anyway.
I gotta go teach the kiddeez some english. Look forward to writing about mind splitting when i get back!
|
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 28, 2011 2:35:32 GMT -5
The way I see it is that 'wanting' is about possession, ownership, control and fear....and 'desire' is about expression, creativity and love. Desire is a pure form of wanting and comes from within. With desire comes passion, open heartedness, commitment and honesty.
I read what you said Ivory. In my opinion, some thoughts just dont need questioning. Maybe you purely and genuinely desire a joyful, honest and loving relationship with a beautiful woman. There aint nothing wrong with that. I used to think a lot about that kind of relationship and there came a point when I stopped trying to quell my desire because I saw that the desire just wasnt my own. It was driving me forward and I was trying to put on the brakes and control it. So I dropped that strategy and used some manifestation tools instead. Not long after I met a woman who is now my wife, and although that sounds kind of fairy tale, the reality of it was anything but lol.
|
|
