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Post by therealfake on Sept 25, 2011 22:03:25 GMT -5
Others have tried to answer this same question for you again and again and yet you still ask it. Then whatever terms you think in be happy with that and enjoy life. The terms I think in in real life are practical/functional throughout. Nondual folks claim that enlightenment is the most important thing. Any idiot can make extraordinary claims, but what makes nondual folks stand out from the herd is that they are too coherent and intelligent for their claims to likely be products of a delusion. So after assessing the situation I can't help but give them a chance; return on investment seems too high to be ignored. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to make their message functional, so I hope that I've misunderstood something. So I ask again from a different angle each time. Some people have trouble believing it, but I really don't have a clue how to make nonduality practical/functional in actual life (and not just as a somewhat coherent idea). It's strange though, how you first write a flowery description of 'this', then claim that questions about it can't be answered, and then make me defend my own questioning. Maybe Klaus could explain if he is "experiencing" non duality as an aspect of the awareness or if he is "experiencing" the "thought" about non duality. My crayon just isn't big enough to draw a circle around the perceived universe, but it's a piece of cake using a "thought"...hehe |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 0:45:20 GMT -5
If this were really the case, would you speak from the side facing the sky, or from the side facing the soil? He would speak from the sideless side as he creatlessly creates. Lately, I'm thinkin what Andrew gets out of his paradox game is the ability to never be wrong. The thing I've always said about Andrew is that he's not wrong. He can't be wrong if he always has one foot on each side of every fence.  If its true that I cant ever be wrong then its also equally true that I cant ever be right. One foot on each side of every fence is what I would call balance. The middle way. Centered without center. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 0:50:43 GMT -5
He would speak from the sideless side as he creatlessly creates. Lately, I'm thinkin what Andrew gets out of his paradox game is the ability to never be wrong. The thing I've always said about Andrew is that he's not wrong. He can't be wrong if he always has one foot on each side of every fence. Indeed. Excellent observation. To Andrew's defense, he apparently doesn't know if he's right or wrong. Haha yes, you see how it plays out for me. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 1:03:11 GMT -5
Indeed. Excellent observation. To Andrew's defense, he apparently doesn't know if he's right or wrong. Well that's because he's both and neither.....and not even that!  Yes, I think you see it too (though its been a while since Ive said 'and not even that'). I began to notice something about a year ago. If I argued strongly for (or against) something, I would manifest/be given a situation soon after in which I would basically have to eat my words. For example, if I was arguing strongly on the forum that there was no choice, I would soon after find myself in a situation in which the most appropriate thing to do was to acknowledge choice! (Even in that paragraph, notice that I said 'manifest/be given' - they are really the 2 opposite sides of the coin.) I looked at the issues that I regularly argued and could see that there are 2 sides to the coin to each issue, and that neither side of the coin is more true than the other. Different situations call for different sides of the coin. So the idea of 'flexibility' has become resonant with me in the last year. The ability to shift between dichotomous perspectives easily and fluidly. Though just to be clear, in the end, deliberately NOT trying to attach to any one side is still attaching to one side! Attaching to being flexible is not being flexible! I can see clearly that Abraham-Hicks really is pointing to the same thing as any non-dual teacher. Its just the other side of the coin. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 1:13:05 GMT -5
Others have tried to answer this same question for you again and again and yet you still ask it. Then whatever terms you think in be happy with that and enjoy life. The terms I think in in real life are practical/functional throughout. Nondual folks claim that enlightenment is the most important thing. Any idiot can make extraordinary claims, but what makes nondual folks stand out from the herd is that they are too coherent and intelligent for their claims to likely be products of a delusion. So after assessing the situation I can't help but give them a chance; return on investment seems too high to be ignored. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to make their message functional, so I hope that I've misunderstood something. So I ask again from a different angle each time. Some people have trouble believing it, but I really don't have a clue how to make nonduality practical/functional in actual life (and not just as a somewhat coherent idea). It's strange though, how you first write a flowery description of 'this', then claim that questions about it can't be answered, and then make me defend my own questioning. I want to try and answer your question about the practicality/functionality. I would say that in a way, everyone is functioning non-dualistically to at least some degree. No matter how crazy or lost in their mind someone is, they are still not totally disconnected from being. We cant totally get away from ourselves, or from who we are. Most people have moments of greater clarity, moments in which they experience a strong felt connection to being. So perhaps the only real difference between most people and the people on this forum is that the people on this forum experience a more consistent strong felt connection with being. Which isnt a big deal really. The functioning is still the same. |
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Post by Portto on Sept 26, 2011 7:14:29 GMT -5
If its true that I cant ever be wrong then its also equally true that I cant ever be right. One foot on each side of every fence is what I would call balance. The middle way. Centered without center. Don't you have any feeling of doing the right thing when you offer advice? When you help someone, are you indifferent or have an equal feeling of right and wrong? What do you feel (what do you think) when you help others? |
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Post by question on Sept 26, 2011 8:14:57 GMT -5
everyone is functioning non-dualistically No sh:t, Sherlock. strong felt connection with being Haha. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 8:57:53 GMT -5
If its true that I cant ever be wrong then its also equally true that I cant ever be right. One foot on each side of every fence is what I would call balance. The middle way. Centered without center. Don't you have any feeling of doing the right thing when you offer advice? When you help someone, are you indifferent or have an equal feeling of right and wrong? What do you feel (what do you think) when you help others? Yes, there is a sense of rightness and actually I would say that as my path has unfolded I have become increasing sensitive to what is right action and wrong action in any given situation. But this sense of rightness comes from within, not from the words I am speaking. I still take wrong action sometimes though. Probably every day. There is nothing more I would love than to live in perfect innocence, openness and honesty. If such a thing is possible, I am not there yet. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 8:58:55 GMT -5
everyone is functioning non-dualistically No sh:t, Sherlock. strong felt connection with being Haha. Haha...as we say in the UK sometimes.....furry muff (or fair enough!) |
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Post by enigma on Sept 26, 2011 11:46:09 GMT -5
He would speak from the sideless side as he creatlessly creates. Lately, I'm thinkin what Andrew gets out of his paradox game is the ability to never be wrong. The thing I've always said about Andrew is that he's not wrong. He can't be wrong if he always has one foot on each side of every fence. If its true that I cant ever be wrong then its also equally true that I cant ever be right. Yes, it's a paradox, isn't it? More like the high wire act in the spiritual circus. The nature of mind is dualistic, and every thought divides. This creates a tension that makes the movement of experience possible. What you're trying to do with mind runs counter to the function of mind. It's an attempt to remove the tension from dualistic experience. Tension is what holds you to the ground and keeps the Earth spinning around the sun and the electron spinning around the nucleus. It's not a problem to be solved. |
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Post by Portto on Sept 26, 2011 12:34:12 GMT -5
Yes, there is a sense of rightness and actually I would say that as my path has unfolded I have become increasing sensitive to what is right action and wrong action in any given situation. But this sense of rightness comes from within, not from the words I am speaking. I still take wrong action sometimes though. Probably every day. How can you do these when you don't know what is right and what is wrong? |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 13:14:17 GMT -5
If its true that I cant ever be wrong then its also equally true that I cant ever be right. Yes, it's a paradox, isn't it? More like the high wire act in the spiritual circus. The nature of mind is dualistic, and every thought divides. This creates a tension that makes the movement of experience possible. What you're trying to do with mind runs counter to the function of mind. It's an attempt to remove the tension from dualistic experience. Tension is what holds you to the ground and keeps the Earth spinning around the sun and the electron spinning around the nucleus. It's not a problem to be solved. Im not trying to do anything with mind and there is very little tension these days. Not-knowing is very very easy. I fairly fluidly and easily shift between dichotomous perspectives because no side of the coin is attached to as absolutely true. The mind is allowed to be free. So it may not be a problem to be solved but it seems it has been pretty much solved anyway. It sounds to me as if you like the tension you describe and thats fine, but that tension is not inevitable. Dualistic experiencing is not inevitable, and is not the actuality anyway. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2011 13:21:36 GMT -5
Yes, there is a sense of rightness and actually I would say that as my path has unfolded I have become increasing sensitive to what is right action and wrong action in any given situation. But this sense of rightness comes from within, not from the words I am speaking. I still take wrong action sometimes though. Probably every day. How can you do these when you don't know what is right and what is wrong? Im not so deep into not-knowing that there isnt an awareness and interpretation of what Im feeling. This is why it makes sense to me to say that there is still some belief in a believer lingering around. I cant honestly say that I know one way or the other, but there are clues which suggest to me that there is still some degree of belief. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 26, 2011 16:06:05 GMT -5
Yes, there is a sense of rightness and actually I would say that as my path has unfolded I have become increasing sensitive to what is right action and wrong action in any given situation. But this sense of rightness comes from within, not from the words I am speaking. I still take wrong action sometimes though. Probably every day. How can you do these when you don't know what is right and what is wrong? Everything would be right, and paradoxically everything would be equally wrong. Hmmmmm......... |
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Post by enigma on Sept 26, 2011 16:12:57 GMT -5
Yes, it's a paradox, isn't it? More like the high wire act in the spiritual circus. The nature of mind is dualistic, and every thought divides. This creates a tension that makes the movement of experience possible. What you're trying to do with mind runs counter to the function of mind. It's an attempt to remove the tension from dualistic experience. Tension is what holds you to the ground and keeps the Earth spinning around the sun and the electron spinning around the nucleus. It's not a problem to be solved. Im not trying to do anything with mind and there is very little tension these days. Not-knowing is very very easy. I fairly fluidly and easily shift between dichotomous perspectives because no side of the coin is attached to as absolutely true. The mind is allowed to be free. So it may not be a problem to be solved but it seems it has been pretty much solved anyway. It sounds to me as if you like the tension you describe and thats fine, but that tension is not inevitable. Dualistic experiencing is not inevitable, and is not the actuality anyway. Tension is just tension. I didn't mean to imply it was good or bad, which I had hoped to convey in those examples. I don't know how you can say there is very little tension these days when every conversation is driven by that tension. Shifting between perspectives, fluidly or not, is tension. Working on doing the right thing, and feeling good all the time, and helping your mother, is tension. |
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