Well I guess that since the folks won't read the whole thread I ought to highlight your abject failures as a human being here. I'm pretty sure that anyone sane will be able to see what a confused person you are and that your mental health is questionable. Whilst your friends may be in denial its crystal clear to any one with a degree of integrity that you have made an abortion of your thread and this is simply because I have highlighted and challenged your beliefs, shown your absurd arguments to be shaky and you are in total denial.
You obviously don't have the minerals.
You have NOT even tried to undertake the process.
You have levelled half arsed philosophical reasons as to why you should not look and as soon as I have shown the absurdity of your arguments you are claiming that I have not disproved your arguments and that western philosophy has nothing to say on the matter.
If it were not true I think I would have found out by now and I would be able to spend time having fun instead of dealing with peoples delusions on a daily basis. Jasun, I don't do this for recreation.
Jasun, you cannot see the insane babble that is coming out of your mouth so I am stoking your ego in the hope that you can see it.
Are you even referring to the same thread? I have simply cajoled the delusion out of you Jasun and you have it laid it out in writing. Its not my fault that you are incabable of seeing it.
Jasun you were told explicitly to LOOK countless times, if there is misunderstanding on any ones part it is clearly on yours, since you have ignored that part of the deal.
I am not the great liberator, I'm mediocre! Do you really think that I identify by being an anonymous screen name on the internet? Well, I suppose you can only take my word for it, I have no evidence to prove that I don't! Believe me I am studying full time at the moment that is why I have spare time, I am taking your thread as a mold in which to point other argumentation startegies to in the hope that I don't have to spend inordinate amounts of time in the future.
Well christ, you didn't bother to look what else would you think could happen if you tried to use our method without LOOKING? That you would succeed?
Did you expect to work it out logically? It can't be done that is why we use the word LOOK so often Jasun. I told you hundreds of time to LOOK and you didn't. Its like me shouting mind the paint a thousand times and you still ended up kicking it over!
I was saying LOOK till I was blue in the face by your own admission. What more do I do Jasun? How else can I get you to LOOK if you are unwilling to follow a basic instruction. You said you didn't know how so I told you to try and find a way.
Quite frankly this sums up your thread Jasun. You are trying to shift the onus on to me when all you did was stare at your hand until you hallucinated (you probably thought it was real lmao!!) and labelled some objects and then YOU started to lay logical arguments instead of continuing to look. I genuinely thought at one point you were here for something other than to try and adopt poor argumentation strategies. Clearly you were not and now you are seriously questioning our methodology? In order to review a book you must read it first Jasun, I am stunned that you have the audacity to make these claims. It just goes to show that this exercise has simply being you holding a belief about TS and then trying to find evidence to justify your belief. Fortunately anyone sane who reads your thread will be able to see through your bullshit as this is clearly evidenced in the thread.
It is because you never tried to employ our method. I think anyone who reads the thread will see that is crystal clear.
No Jasun, I mean anyone of sound mind and faculties.
I must admit I am absolutely stunned that you would claim that people would disagree with my position on that thread and I would invite anyone to read that OP. This is clear evidence that you are totally deluded Jasun you are living in a dream world quite clearly. I was worried that you were exhibiting signs of psychosis so I stopped the thread on safety grounds. If anyone neutral read that thread they would certainly ask questions about your mental health.
This is where you are contradicting yourself. You claim here that you do the choosing but at the same time now you are claiming that the illusory self or false self as you have put it, is actually the outward behaviour and thought.
The false or illusory self is made up of reactive “tics” or preprogrammed responses, so I don’t see any contradiction. As long as the illusory self is in the driving seat, then our actions are automatic and predetermined.
This is CONTRADICTORY
You claimed you were an agent that had control over your actions. Jasun it is in the OP as one of your propositions, you are telling lies to your friends here.
How can you be programmed responses and have free will to choose? That is fallacious and these are exactly the weak and ridiculous type of arguments you attempted to level and I have shown to be false. Do you not see this? You don't even know what you are talking about.
Jasun you have stopped looking and decided to lay logical arguments for the existence of the self. I simply took the opportunity to rip in to you and collect the worthless arguments you made, so I can direct people to them to save me time in future. The brow beating is so that people can clearly see the absurdity of your position when they read it. I admit that my tactics are hostile at times and I need to address this, it is one of my failings.
Remember Jasun, YOU laid logical arguments, I knew you were not interested in looking so I decided that I should argue logically in order to show how ridiculous these arguments are. We get a lot of argumentation like this so your thread was going to be a showcase of these arguments but instead it looks like I am dealing with a loony toon who cannot be reasoned with.
Please tell me what I am assuming?
Am I assuming that you are laying philosophical arguments for the existence of the self with the problem being that you have never studied philosophy?
Am I assuming that you never took the trouble to bother looking?
Am I assuming that you are presenting 400 year old arguments that have been proved conclusively false already and your response is that the results of some of the greatest minds who ever lived is not even worth considering before you lay down your own pseudo philosophical views and that western philosophy is nothing more than dogma because you know more than they do?
Am I also assuming that this is completely irrational?
Am I assuming that someone who cites time travel as a valid argumentation is completely clueless?
Am I assuming that when someone claims their hallucinations are tangible they may have some kind of mental disorder?
Finally am I also assuming that you are ducking out of the challenges presented to you?
It was a simple quoting error Jasun, I am not infallible. By the way I glean more information by watching you clutch at straws and refusing to look. That I think speaks volumes.
No Jasun I stopped the thread for your own safety. I believed you had a mental health disorder (now I just think you are a basket case who just about stays integrated in to society) and if I continued chipping away at your beliefs then that could make me liable for problems that I didn't want to be held responsible for. Claiming that your hallucinations are real is a symptom of psychosis, and this coupled with the fact that you cannot even see that the elementary logic you applied is false, your denial of absurdities and your inability to detect your own bullshit I felt I had no choice.
Jasun there are no disciples on TS we are a voluntary outfit and no one has ever been asked to do anything apart from look for the truth. I am afraid that your bias is highlighted right here.
Oh and for the record, nothing you have had to say should be taken seriously since it is nothing more than contradictory gibberish. I have not had to establish that fact, you are clearly an intellectual person but what you have done is taken yourself to absurd positions by holding contradictory arguments and presenting fiction as fact. You have bought yourself to the point that you look like you are insane!!!
If anyone has bought themselves in disrepute it is you sir, and it is crystal clear to anyone who reads the thread. You are simply in denial I am wondering if the collective here will still support you even in the face of such obvious absurdity. Saying that though, you are probably telling them what they wanted to hear.
You never looked and you wanted me to justify why you should even bother. That is precisely the wrong attitude to have if you want to discover something and what you were told in the thread with words to that effect.
I suggest you stop telling your friends lies. Look at page 6 of the thread
truthstrike.com/central/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20&start=50What... that the contents of our hallucinations and imaginary dreams are real?
I am not doubting the phenomena of dreams and hallucinations exists, I have had dreams and done LSD before. Thoughts are representations of reality they are not necessarily accurate representations of reality itself? Think of a unicorn, does that mean its real or a fantasy?
Yes but you are taking me entirely out of context
It is still a figment of your imagination - a fantasy nothing more. Are you actually arguing that this figment of your imagination is reality or is it only a metaphor of reality?
What is it a verification of Jasun? I have had premonitions before, these are strange phenomena but that doesn't mean anything. I could have sworn that I had experienced something before but I could never be sure of that. That does not mean I should start asserting that its a fact and use it as a line of argumentation does it?
Jasun you jumped ship from every argument and I highlighted to you the absurd consequences of your position. Perhaps you might like to make a bullet point list of the arguments that I have not properly addressed but don't bother, I will leave it up to the reader to decide.
Of course the deprogramming can't be done over night, thats why some people meditate, others use autolysis. All methods are valid Jasun. If I start speaking to people in everyday life like I did in that thread to you then I would be worried about being a sociopath too lol!! Thankfully I have not got in to any pub fights lately and I have been to loads of meals out and birthday parties lately, so I would say that I am just tickety boo thanks for your concern.
Jasun if you and your friends would care to look at the thread, you would see that I dropped the attitude when you pretended to start to look. Check pages 3 – 4 and I actually gave you encouragement to look but you lied to me.
I was encouraging you to look and that was genuine encouragement. I start the hostile approach when people make silly arguments, the whole idea is so you see the deluded nonsense you have written out and then ask yourself the question “Did I really write that bullshit?”
When dealing with delusion it is necessary to shove people in the right direction. If you notice though, when people are looking we are polite and when they talk rubbish then they get pushed back in line, this is merely to keep their focus on the gate. In your case you have had your delusion made an example of.
Dude check the liberations out there is a link to many of them and I am sure you will see for yourself that these people have come to the end of an honest inquiry. Just because you have failed it does not mean that other people cannot muster the back bone to look.
I would disagree with your last statement since when people get it its not something that you can lie about easily. In fact one guy has done that on TS now! He is being questioned about it as we speak.
You seem to be reading us wrong. You seem to have the impression that we do this for fun?
Do you really think we are playing a numbers game?
Perhaps if we were charging people cash for these liberations then it would be in our interests. Since we are doing this for free and sacrificing our personal time to help others, would that not seem to misfit your current view of us? Do you really think any of us would be doing this if we didn't hand on hearts think we were doing the right thing? If someone could find a way to transmit this insight in an easy to use package that joe public could pick up and use, I could chill out and leave this behind.
Then I would focus on chilling out, playing sports and writing music. However, that does not seem like it is going to happen any time soon unfortunately!
I will take your comments on board I have never been accused of being aggressive so I will bear that in mind but I think you are a bit sensitive and over reactive since all I did was tell you that you were writing drivel and called you a moron and rightly so IMO. I leave it to the reader to take sides on whose credibility has been compromised. If I sound like a school yard bully then that is my failing as a human being. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I need to work on this but I will say that arguing against delusion like this is trying to call attention to the glaring inconsistencies in your arguments.
Clearly not Jasun
No Jasun you were using the soul to justify why you thought different humans had different levels of courage. So what is courage really? A neurological urge to stand your ground in a fight-or-flight situation. Now it would appear that other creatures rather than humans would show such traits, reptiles being one of countless species. Since they always seem to fight or flee how do you account for this when you claim it is because of the soul in humans? That is the issue here not claiming reptiles are honest. This is exactly the kind of slithering you were doing in that thread, you are ducking out of the real question that threatens your delusion.
Jasun lets unpack this. We established that we cannot disprove anything. We cannot prove unicorns don't exist and we cannot prove that flying hippos don't exist much less a soul.
We agreed on this since this is one of your central arguments. However we can logically infer that things don't exist based on the grounds of reason. Now of course, knowledge is something that we cannot truly be said to have. The closest we can get to anything resembling knowledge is through empiricism and falsification, with all its inherent faults.
That aside we can make sound inferences based on the evidence that we have available. We can infer unicorns don't exist since there are no sightings and no fossils. We can infer flying hippo's don't exist since it would defy the conservation of energy law and various other problems to do with physical mass etc... would render it a physical impossibility. I would have to concede that maybe scientists could genetically engineer one, one day in the future and push it off a cliff, vioila a flying hippo. However, for all intensive purposes we can say in the natural state of things it would be as good as impossible.
Now this is the thing Jasun, we have just shown that we can never say that something does not exist but we can look for the grounds that would suggest it was not possible. A soul is necessarily non physical since detecting a physical soul then would be very very easy to do and it would be scientifically proven tomorrow. So we have to have a non physical soul substance which cannot be energy, since energy is PHYSICAL. If you are going to hold that a soul is a physical thing that exists then quite simply that reinforces the fact that you are total crackpot who is not even worth listening to – a mystical moron as it were.
How does it interact with physical matter?
The physical universe is governed by strict physical laws – we may not be aware of all of them but we can say that judging on all our other observations that in order for particles to interact in the physical world they must be physical. If something is not physical, then how can it move the physical world? It is non physical, so it can't be both physical and non physical or else we would be able to measure its effects. By the way, the soul has never been observed by anyone (apart from you) and there is no tangible evidence whatsoever for its existence.
So bearing in mind you are arguing for something that has never been observed, we can argue for the existence of fairies using the same argument. It is just as absurd for me to argue that fairies exist, even though they have never been observed.
Now in order for souls to influence the body, we have to rely on a further assumption of a 'magical energy'. In order for a non physical thing to interact with the physical world there is some kind of process happening for the two to interact. Rememeber if you have to separate non physical with physical, the physical world cannot be affected by something non physical unless there is some kind of interaction. Lets just call this interaction magical energy.
Now we can make the following argument:
Souls exist
magical energy exists
Therefore souls can interact with the physical world
I can now show this argument to prove fairies exist
Fairies exist
magical energy exists
Therefore fairies can cast spells on the physical world
Your argument is fallacious. Now lets add on additional layer of assumptions. What if I hallucinated a fairy while tripping my nuts off?
I will save you the bother but this is the exact same argument you are using, it is an invalid argument, you need to rethink your position or better yet question your belief. Better still, drop the belief until you have something tangible other than a figment of your imagination as proof.
You are assuming I am a voice of authority I am not, I merely challenged your beliefs and ran you ragged without breaking a sweat. If you believe hallucinations and dreams are indications for the existence of something tangible in the real world that is a symptom of psychosis and I have cause to be genuinely concerned.
Well I would challenge you to find an instance where this has happened but since we cannot experience things the same we can say this is irrelevant. Were I to grant you that this was possible then we would have to point to it being a coincidence. Having a dream is not insanity Jasun, it is merely a figment of our imagination, you just seem to have real trouble discerning fact from fiction and this is a worrying sign.
Yawn... you are taking me out of context Jasun, which shows that you are clutching at straws. You were talking about the empirical validity of hallucinations and dreams. I am not doubting you had empirical experience of the hallucination and dreams - that was real phenomenon you encountered. The problem you have here is that you are trying to claim the intentional object of your imagination is something that exists tangibly in real life. The thing is, if something is true, then it would ALSO be backed up by good logic but since a soul has no weight behind it (its non physical so can't!) apart from belief you picked up when you were conditioned at school. It is little more than a belief with no substantial claim.
I would say that the reduction program is also flawed since I think that scientists rely on purely external considerations. Me personally, I think physical is subjective, universal consciousness and all that jargon and there is no distinction to be made, however, since I have nothing to present apart from a hunch, I am obviously wise to try not to bring it in to an argument for a position because I would be relying on an unfounded belief.
You have argued using belief and flawed logic throughout the thread Jasun.
Jasun, you have not shifted gears, you have abandoned your arguments and you even claimed that western philosophy was dogma that should be ignored. You have tried to ignore parts of the post that were uncharitable to your case and have had to go as far as to bring your beliefs in to the case in a lame attempt to give yourself legitimacy. Many people have thought about these things long before you Jasun, some of them even spoke total sense, (although not all). You have to bear in mind that some of these people were not foaming at the mouth lunatics and were unwilling to cling to beliefs.
What am I projecting? That you are relying on metaphysical beliefs for your arguments and you were not interested in looking? I would hardly say this was my projection Jasun.
It is designed to make you question your own non sensical arguments. Its pretty plain for anyone to see that you have made an abortion of your thread and you have tried to adopt ridiculous arguments instead of undertaking some LOOKING as you committed to doing.
Are you serious?
Jasun, this is the kind of argumentation I have had from you:
Our method doesn't work – you haven't looked
I have not demolished your arguments – you have taken up new ones and slithered out of answering questions that challenged your position
I am not listening – You are making arguments about time travel and UFO's
I am using dogma – I am presenting beginner level philosophy to you
I am not considering your view – it is clear that you cannot discern fantasy from real life
I am using logic – you are arguing illogically for a soul and time travel
Need I go on? I may have let myself down by ripping in to you but your arguments are ridiculous and sound like the work of a barking mad man.
Jasun YOU are the one who attempted to level logical argumentation at me for the existence of the self. If you are not willing to look, we can use elementary logic to defeat your argumentation for the purpose of highlighting the inherent fallacy in your absurd position.
The hope was you would see sense and start looking.
Now Jasun, you did not even try to look you gave up after an hour and now you are saying we are trying to apply logic when we have CLEARLY told you to drop the logic and start looking. You don't have a leg to stand on here, I suggest you check with your cohorts if you cannot even see this simple fact. It was your choice to start arguing remember, I offered to help you look and gave you ample chance to drop this strategy and take up the looking. This is merely your blind ignorance.
Am I merely assuming that your arguments are nonsensical, or am I hallucinating?
Jassun we cannot make souls with our awareness. Either they exist or they don't?
This is bonkers pal, are you really sure your friends here would disagree with me? If they were your 'friends' and they cared about your well being I am pretty sure that they would stop encouraging you to look in to this spirituality lark as it is affecting your sanity.
The thing is Jasun since you are arguing for a physical soul in this thread too (apparently you can now have both non physical and physical souls) then you are talking about creating physical matter with your awareness. This my friend IS tantamount to madness.
How can it when it is “non physical” and necessarily non spatial? You were claiming the soul must be physical earlier and now your arguing for a non physical interaction?
YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF AGAIN JASUN. HOW MANY MORE TIMES ARE YOU GONG TO DO THIS AND THEN CLAIM THAT YOU ARE OF SOUND JUDGEMENT?
It has never been observed, just because it seems like it is true it doesn't mean that it is! It seems obvious that the earth is flat but it is not. This is absolute drivel you are writing here Jasun, there is a reason that it has not made it in to the text books and that is because there is no evidence for it and there are other more plausible explanations. Now you are arguing against the entire field of science?
Above you cite quantum theory as a valid argument, yet you believe there is a conspiracy for scientists to deny the existence of souls?
?
I rest my case.
This is hilarious!!!! Well so far your established sources seem to be ufo conspiracy theorists, unicorn story books, pseudo science, hallucinations, Rikki Lake level philosophy and Star Trek by your own admission LMAO!!!!
Yes it can, why don't you read them before you pass judgement on them?
What misconceptions? The fact that you are using hallucinations as the basis of your beliefs and you are arguing for a physical and non physical sou as well as other numerous and total CONTRADICTIONS?
Lets show everyone how deluded you really are now
Which laboratory? In disneyland, or the christian discovery institute?
Cool, show me the peer reviewed scientific evidence from these studies and I will gladly look at it.
But you said this was from hallucinations and dreams. Here it is folks:
truthstrike.com/central/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20&start=50But you already stated that this was when you were under the influence of drugs or asleep. Here it is folks:
truthstrike.com/central/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20&start=50 So instead you opted to believe the contents of your dreams and hallucinations as a substitute for poor science?
It is a belief Jasun it is a ridiculous and contradictory argument that you have put forward in any case. The only reason we cannot kill this idea is because we can never prove anything 100% However, we can highlight the absurdities of having such beliefs and put them aside and say “honestly I simply don't know” instead of presenting them as supporting evidence in a wholly flawed argument.
Yes, but a soul is non physical by its very nature. Were it to be physical it would have directly measurable properties. Do you think scientists are involved in a cover up Jasun? Do you not actually think that if they could detect it then it would be accepted science? Maybe its like the UFO's lol!!
Yes you did Jasun.
Firstly, were this so then why are you bringing it up in an argument about the self?
Secondly you also stated Jasun that you are the continuous self same consciousness in that thread. So now you are not consciousness but the behaviour itself, and you are also a self that chooses your actions, when earlier on you were the continuity of consciousness?
You have done the round robin, THAT IS THREE THINGS JASUN that you claim the self is.
You are identifying with three entirely different things and you claim that your arguments are not deluded and you are of sound mind?
I rest my case.
Your theories are worthy of a crackpot as I have demonstrated here, if anyone else agrees with you then I have little hope for them.
Yes, it was all in vein, I couldn't snap you out of your puddled delusion, I failed Jasun
Thanks for pointing out my grammatical mistake
You have reinforced your delusion and anyone reading the thread on TS and here will probably get a good insight in to how screwed up you are. I just thought it pertinent that your analysis is not only unfair and your thinking that you walked away was as a result of me trying to silence your voice is absolutely laughable quite frankly. I have pointed out your lies and I leave anyone to judge for themselves who is talking absolute shit here.
I was concerned and I still am, why don't you post the nice email I sent you for the folks to see?
If people want to accept that you believe your hallucinations are real and that is not indicative of psychosis then that is all well and good but by medical definitions and the clear evidence of your hopeless argumentative strategy I would say that you are not all there. I think if your family were to read that thread they would genuinely be concerned about your mental state of mind. If your friends had any concern for you then they would stop reinforcing your deluded nonsense.
Thanks but no thanks, I have no wish to discuss things that don't exist with a foaming at the mouth crackpot who can't make their mind up which argument they want to throw their weight behind.
You have been looking for twenty years so don't hold your breath.
You were called out on your lies, nothing more and even ridiculing you did not make you stop for a minute and looking at the garbage you spewed.
The irony lol!!!
I don't think it is wise to give such a rabid foaming at the mouth loony toon the oxygen to present their warped conception of reality on our forum and on ethical grounds it is not right for us to try and get you to look. Anyone reading that thread will see just how deluded you are but I leave that to someone of good faculties and sound judgement to decide, the people here are clearly involved in reinforcing a collective delusion. Perhaps I was a little too abrasive at times, I too have learnt a lot from this thread but the truth speaks for itself and if you can't see that then good luck to you.
Get well soon Jasun
P.S
That is a blatant lie!!! You claimed you were open to it but refused to look. Anyone can see this Jasun you are living in a dream world mate.
***Admin please remove my account***
), I ran my own forum in a similar fashion and I would say I fell into the kind of "trap" you're describing. In many ways I would say the nine days I just went through was a kind of penance for that.
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