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Post by vacant on Nov 26, 2010 7:22:14 GMT -5
As much as I love science (Engineer by trade and when I'm drunk I can fancy meself an amateur inventor) when science is brought up in the context of spirituality, there's no interest at all, since it's funda-mentally a distraction. Any spiritual forum that bills itself as 'interesting' or entertainment is trying to sell you something, and from my perspective there are way more than enough 'spiritual' forums selling stuff that has nothing to do with anything true. Spiritual work is work, not play, and for the serious seeker it can get rousingly intense, and so it's wise to cultivate a shade of humor and hang onto that for dear life, but my advice, for whatever THAT is worth, is to avoid the irrelevant at all cost. The cost is measured in years and lifetimes of suffering. I, for one, am not here to be entertained nor to entertain. I'm not here to tiptoe lightly through anybody's sensibility tulips, and this week in particular, I don't give a flying pterodactyl about anybody's rules of proper discussion etiquette. The game plan is to die before you die, and how you hold your pinky as you do it is not especially meaningful. Hallelujah! thanks for that. I just wonder why "this week in particular", because I feel that way any old week.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 26, 2010 9:20:52 GMT -5
Alright a whole book could be written answering this question so I will just give you a pointer to think about. For a moment pretend their is another world yet to be discovered by you. In this world their is no mind so words could never be used to explain what this world is. Now if you knew for sure that their was a lost world in your world and it was far closer than you would think and this world was far more unique than anything you will experience in the physical would you not wish to drop all your searching for artifacts and put on your Indiana Jones hat and go discover. So when you wake up at that moment everything I have written becomes confirm by your own self as only you can confirm it. Michael [ Waking up to what? Most users on this forum never explain this. Michael: Good answer! And in this hidden world--a world that cannot be imagined--all problems and conflicts and relationships are absent. Compassion, generosity, mercy, kindness, gratitude, humor, contentment, acceptance, and selfless love replace greed, envy, lust, pride, fear, worry, and despair. However, the price of entering this hidden world is pretty high because you have to give up your most prized possession--your self. It definitely won't appeal to most people because in this hidden world there is no time, no space, no causality, no things, no beliefs, no ideas, no science, no religion, no "us" versus "them," and much less besides. It is certainly not for the faint-hearted, the lazy, or the merely curious. Most people who ultimately find this hidden world are stubborn uncompromising warriors (wielding the sword of Manjushri?) willing to slash through every obstacle that the mind erects. Who would ever want to leave the warm cozy comfort of a dream world to search for the stark strange mysteriousness of the real?
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Post by m on Nov 26, 2010 11:37:55 GMT -5
When I was into "enlightenment intensives" (participating or leading) I many times could see how easily we can mix the "absolute" which was the truth of the "experience" being lived at the "enlightenment-instant", with everything that could be happening in the "body-heart-mind" at the same time or after. The distinction and relation between the "absolute" of the "absolute" and our sensing-feeling-thinking (forgive my raw linguistic) to be made can be really confusing even for quite advanced people.
So, or you get in touch with the "absolute" or you don't. There is no fooling around with that.
And/but our knowing is quite another thing. For one: knowing can be but relative. And, for two: what I could call the knowing of the "absolute"by the "absolute" is what, from our ordinory consciousness would be better called "unknowing".... And for three :-) this "unknowing" is the source of an infinite number of " different "knowings" (that is part of my cabinintheforest side of the coin, the otherpart beeing that interesting myself to science from the "absolute" "unknowing"-perspective (so to speak) is really fun and feed back into the experience-absolute)
Please don't understand this post as a talk about what-really-is for "I don't know", but as a way to enrich what I understand at this very moment of my life. Thanks to you all for that. m
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Post by zendancer on Nov 26, 2010 13:40:38 GMT -5
Cabin: You wrote, "But i think you are taking it a bit far when you are claiming to know the absolute truth of everything." To set the record straight, I have never claimed any such thing; that is YOUR idea. I have repeatedly said that there is no end to what can be learned through NOT-knowing because the world revealed through NOT-knowing is infinite. I have also said not to get attached to anything anyone writes about nonduality because all words about THAT are pointing to something beyond language and thought.
All viewpoints are relative (because they are products of ideation), and all statements (because of the nature of dualistic language) are both true and false at the same time. You are continuing to confuse the pointing finger with what the finger is pointing to. Leonard Jacobsen sums up the situation beautifully in these lines:
Truth exists only in silence. Truth exists only in the present moment. You will have to be silent and fully present if you are to know the truth.
The kind of knowing that Jacobsen is pointing to is not mind-knowing; it is body-knowing. It is how you "know" that hot coffee is hot. No words or thoughts are necessary. God can be known in the same way as the hot coffee is known to be hot--directly through the body. One does this by becoming silent and present.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 26, 2010 13:46:50 GMT -5
Cabin,
ZD is not saying he knows it all. To know something from your understanding(the mind) is different than being the knowing and this is what we are saying. Not knowing it all but be the knowing.
You simply cannot debate something like this and get any useful answers. The best you can come up with is "This is just the way it is" so try as you may to use your mind to understand it but you will find it's a useless battle. You cannot understand something that is beyond the mind with the mind. It's not that is their are 2 sides to a coin it's there is no coin to begin with. AS ZD said most people would never choose to awaken to what really is. Now nothing at all wrong with not wanting the real, after all remember in the film the Matrix the "bad" guy turned on his colleges so to live a unreal but extremely satisfying life or so he thought. However there are a few folks that have had enough realization living in the physical world that they know it's a world of opposites everything here is polarized. To be happy is to be sad, to love is to hate etc. Nothing is permanent and after sometime when you figure that part out then a few will have had enough and it's these ones that discovering the real can be the strongest desire they have. Then others may have everything they need or want and feel quite content and bingo they have a true awakening experience and then there is no going back. But for most the world of the mind is more than enough unless....
M: From my experience it's not getting in touch with the absolute. It's not that you are here and the absolute is over there somewhere. It's knowing that you are the absolute itself and always has been such. It's only our minds that bring up some understanding that we are on a path, making progress etc. What I think and yes of course I use my mind to write these words what I think is the mind is a created illusion and this illusion is like a giant puzzle like the ones we had as kids. However the mind's puzzle always has a few important missing pieces that can never be found as they don't exist. So no matter how hard we try to put this puzzle together you will always be missing these few pieces hence you never see what the mind actually is.
Take care hopefully this is a helpful thread for everyone. Michael
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Nov 26, 2010 13:53:02 GMT -5
Oh my goodness, we may need to get serious for a moment, though its a shame to do so. This body/mind has to preach a sermon on Sunday morning, so here's some good mind-food to chew on. In Luke (17:20) someone asks Jesus, "When will the kingdom of God come?" He replies, "You cannot tell by observation when the KOG comes. There will be no saying, 'Look, here it is!' Or, 'There it is!' for in fact the KOG is within you." This response to the question seems a bit lopsided. I vastly prefer the version that appears in Verse 3 of the Gospel of Thomas. In that verse Jesus says, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the KOG is in the sky,' then the birds will get there ahead of you. If they say, 'It is in the sea, then the fish will get there ahead of you.' Rather, the Kingdom is INSIDE of you AND it is OUTSIDE of you." (the caps are my emphasis). At least this verse covers things in both directions. LOL In verse 5 Jesus says, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you." In verse 61 Jesus says, "I am he who exists from the Undivided." In verse 72 a man says to Jesus, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me." Jesus looked at him and said, "O Man, who has made me a divider?" He then turned to his disciples and said to them, "I am not a divider am I?" (gotta love the dripping sarcasm in those lines!) Finally, in verse 113 he says, "The kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth but men do not see it." (has a more deadly statement ever been uttered?) So, what do we see when we go out in nature? Do we see the forest or the trees? Do we see oneness or multiplicity? Do we see matter and energy located in time and space or do we see the Infinite? Indeed, what IS the Kingdom of God? Where is it? When is it? Who resides there?And how does one get in there? Could Rumi possibly be correct? Could we be knocking on the door from the inside? Well, should we continue in this serious vein, or get back to more en-lighten-ed fun and games? I would vote to go in whatever direction raises the needle on the laugh-o-meter. Hi zendancer, that's a lot of biblical references for a zendancer. I'm not into KOG. There's some things that just need to be spelled out. ;D If I look on the outside, I won't find it. If I look on the inside, I can find it. Then I can see it on the outside too, as there is no inside and outside- and this is seen. Unless I look at the space on the outside. Then this space will be recognized on the inside- and again, same- One. Yes! Rumi poems are the Bomb! Nature is Alive- and so helpful. Let's look between the trees and the forest. That which cannot be seen, is what to see.
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2010 13:58:19 GMT -5
As much as I love science (Engineer by trade and when I'm drunk I can fancy meself an amateur inventor) when science is brought up in the context of spirituality, there's no interest at all, since it's funda-mentally a distraction. Any spiritual forum that bills itself as 'interesting' or entertainment is trying to sell you something, and from my perspective there are way more than enough 'spiritual' forums selling stuff that has nothing to do with anything true. Spiritual work is work, not play, and for the serious seeker it can get rousingly intense, and so it's wise to cultivate a shade of humor and hang onto that for dear life, but my advice, for whatever THAT is worth, is to avoid the irrelevant at all cost. The cost is measured in years and lifetimes of suffering. I, for one, am not here to be entertained nor to entertain. I'm not here to tiptoe lightly through anybody's sensibility tulips, and this week in particular, I don't give a flying pterodactyl about anybody's rules of proper discussion etiquette. The game plan is to die before you die, and how you hold your pinky as you do it is not especially meaningful. Hallelujah! thanks for that. I just wonder why "this week in particular", because I feel that way any old week. Well, it has to with being banned from a forum I've posted on for a decade, which is also irrelevant beyond the energetic connection to this discussion, which brings the attention more strongly to confusion, distraction and unconsciousness.
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Post by karen on Nov 26, 2010 14:09:20 GMT -5
I feel privileged to be a member of a forum that's the epicenter of ALL spiritual discussion on the internet at this time. I'm also pleased and gratified that I can also - with the help of my non-dualist co-conspirators - to hold up and block all meaningful discussion about spirituality in the world. It's good to be in charge.
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2010 14:18:08 GMT -5
Today the spiritual forums, tomorrow the world! BWAhahahahahhaaaaa!
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Nov 26, 2010 14:48:18 GMT -5
Best Quote
Enigma
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Nov 26, 2010 14:57:33 GMT -5
Nope. There is no you.You are right there. I I I I I I that is all nonduality is about. Self centered. Nope.Animals, rocks, plants, other people mean nothing to the nondualist. For the nondualist it's all about himself. Hes the center of the universe. The universe is all about him. Nope.Let's look at a typical "nondual" teacher shall we? Typical?Nisargadatta Maharaj
Was he married? Yes. Did he have any children? Yes. Did he actually do a days work in his life? Yes. Did he give of himself? Constantly.
You can be the judge of this one.What did he do? Just sat around talking about "I" all day. Never visited anywhere, basically spent his life in a village. That's a lot of assumption.That's ok if you think that's what life is. But theres much more than that to me. Spirituality is enjoyable and myserious it is not limited to the teachings of "nonduality". That is the point i was trying to make. I was just interested why some users here put so much attention on nonduality when there are many more things in life. There's only One thing. Life.
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Post by m on Nov 26, 2010 16:04:14 GMT -5
Oh my God ! This is a forum !
A forum with or for human being. Some claiming they are enlightened ( may be they are, may be not, I don't have any way to know and I don't care to say the truth) and some are not ( and there too, may be they are, may be not, I don't have any way to know and I don't care to say the truth). And the very idea to have a forum on spirituality, non-duality, is asking for what we are confronted right now in this forum: That is to say that we are all dealing here with (at least to me) very subtil matter with our gross, inadequate language (and on top of that english is not my language)... so we even not be able to realize when we agree and when we disagree.
But there we are, brave little soldiers of the truh trying to get across to reach each other . And it does'nt matter if all we can do is end into a dual non-science conference.
Because it could well be, that, consciously or not, deep-deep inside, we only dot it because of love. What I mean by "love" here is just being with whatever appears to me, without any judgment nor intent. This is just living this"relative" life" with averything as it is. (may be I received Cabinintheforrest post as an invitation to do just that live and talk about a life wich content much more than our enlightenments, experiences and ideas)
I do believe "the game plan is to die before we die". i already went through several death in my life and, it looks like a new death is preparing since as Zendancer said I, these days, do am "in the mouth of the tiger".
But I understood there was some truth in what cabinintheforest pointed. And all these post (which I find really greats) give me the feeling there may be, indeed, something true in what he keeps on pointing. Even if I don't quite get for now.
Anywhay I understood that was the topic and not directly in "how to play the game to die before we die" or what the value of anything else but just "the game to die before we die" . cabinintheforrest reminds me of this Zen saying : "If you meet the Buddha, kill him!" so to discover him in any and everything else (even science, and cooking, and.. just like making, watching and talking about this wonderful film "American Beauty"... of cours that could be used as a distraction from the game to die.." but the reverse as well and both could on the contrary be enhancinf the game to die... may be, may be not... can we know before we try?
Whatever we choose to write, now and later on this special topic, I am quite sure, for myself this can be very helpful for whoever want to get something out of it. m P.S : Zendancer: I may be wrong, but I believe I know what you mean by the way of the body". I had some experiences of that. Not only through Zazen but otherwise I remember reamizing :" meditation was a question of the mind and an answer of the body". 100% with you on that one. And also body-heart-and mind are as far, as near from "That" which is all that is.
Michaelsees: I, of course totally agree with your remark about my linguistic. I know more than enough how much talking is misleanding. I even have somewhere in me the intent to rewrite some of the best speech I have about "the game to die..." by different teacher I really respect . Just to see how far I can go wothout coming to the point whare I'll just have to through evrything through the window. But that would be a "distracting game" I suppose.. may be not... anyway; I use my poor english as I can, hoping it will be enough for people like you ta get the point. mercy on me If I failed
"There is no coin! Just a metaphor. Apparently not a good one for you . Forgive me. So much for me
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 26, 2010 16:05:29 GMT -5
Well maybe it's the age Cabin. Most of us here are no spring chickens!
Pumpkin pie anyone? Actually my dear old Mom made homemade cheesecake also. Speaking of which indigestion comes into to play here you know when you eat so much you just want no more. Well we have spiritual indigestion also when your young you cannot have enough to eat then later usually much later you are so full of it that you become a good candidate for nonduality and fasting never felt so good! Well one more piece of pie?
Michael
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Post by m on Nov 26, 2010 16:07:58 GMT -5
I understood non-duality process ( Yes I know it's not a process... although :-) "the game plan is to die before we die".... and to keep on living after we die. Am I totally out of it ? m
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 26, 2010 16:55:07 GMT -5
Yes and no, Yes you are correct and no you are not out of it yet.. Michael I understood non-duality process ( Yes I know it's not a process... although :-) "the game plan is to die before we die".... and to keep on living after we die. Am I totally out of it ? m
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