Post by lexi on Dec 2, 2010 13:19:30 GMT -5
Enigma- I don't see a single method, which is why I balk at the 'just do this' approach.
Lexi- There is that which works and that which does not work- which is most methods.
Being still and looking and seeing works.
Whether you don't see a single method or not is irrelevant.
And I am not saying there is a single method, but I am saying that thinking and questioning is a questionable method, and at the very least is takes a looooooong time. Do any of us know how much time we have?
As far as 'balking'- get over it! What part of you balks at the idea of looking and seeing without thought Even if it were stated as the only method? Why not just do it, yeah, just do it- and Then you can determine how effective it is. Give yourself a few months of looking at space, looking at stillness, being still- and Then give your opinion. Otherwise you really don't know what you're talking about here.
Looking, alone, only results in seeing if there is the willingness to see. Otherwise one can sit and meditate and look for decades and not realize anything of real value, which happens.
Elementary.
Stopping the thoughts is only possible if there's the willingness to not think,
In a practice, yes. Thought can stop with hearing a siren, or many other things with no willingness.
The object is not “No Thought”. The object is to See Clearly. This requires no thought. Putting one’s attention in the body highly reduces thought. It is not stopping thought, thought just dissolves, and if it comes up, it isn’t fed so it dissipates. Attention is what is about. If one’s attention is in thought, it is not in Stillness, Silence, Awakening, God.
and I don't mean a conscious desire to not think, which is in direct conflict with unconscious desires, or a practice would not be needed at all.
How hard is it to not think?
It is the hardest thing of all. Being still is the hardest thing of all. Being still is death of the self, of the ego. One might die a thousand times.
The practice itself is a self delusion. How much practice does it take to drop a diamond in the ocean?
What does that have to do with being still, and having no thought?
The issue becomes one of willingness, not practice. If there is willingness, the 'practice' will be instantly and effortlessly successful.
If there is not the willingness, decades of practice will result in failure, and if it's a total failure it may result in liberation.
Why would one practice if they weren’t willing?
But yes, total failure may result in liberation- whether a practicer or not.
Irreconcilable failure is the only possible goal for a practicer.
That is a mighty big, fixed statement. And not true. Nisagadatta had his I Am practice, and he was Realized.
So the issue of willingness must also be addressed in almost every case. This involves conditioning of the mind; beliefs, fears, ignorance, unconsciousness. With unconscious motivations in place as one does his looking practice of no-thought,
nothing will be seen.
Bingo!!!
Mind is very good at not seeing what it doesn't want to see.
I suggest you repeat that out loud many times.
Even the most obvious denial or projection cannot be seen without the willingness to see it, and since it IS obvious, the willingness and the seeing become the same.
You mention willingness a lot. How willing are you?
Are you willing enough to try to be still? Even though your mind gives so many reasons why this is futile. If you are truly willing, you’d be willing to try it.
This is why unconsciousness is so intractable. This function of unconsciousness is to hide it from ourselves, and so it's a given that there is not the willingness to see it, until there is.
I’m not interested in unconsciousness,. I am interested in being Conscious. A way to do this is to be still, no thought, look and see.
A child-like curiosity is very useful in this, a bit like a baby exploring that interesting wheat thresher. Some parts of the 'me' are likely to be accidentally lost, which is really the only way it CAN be lost.
That’s just not true. There are other ways. Tolle’s ego ‘popped like a soap bubble.’
Looking 'beyond mind' is critical because mind contains nothing but it's own illusions and 'proof' of the validity of those illusions (or they wouldn't be held to be true),
Agree.
but without a focus of mind all that is seen is the emptiness that 'we' are,
Right!
obscured by the unwillingness to notice that 'we' are That.
“Unable” would be a more accurate word than unwillingness.
To mind it's simply empty.
Yes, to mind it is perceived emptiness- which threatens its life- the identification with mind, the self, the ego. Mind cannot know emptiness. It cannot go there.
Mind states and woo woo experiences may happen, which mind immediately claims as it's own, and even if realization occurs, it's found that one cannot 'stay there' as the 'me' identity has not been dissolved because nobody wants to look at it. This is how we find so many 'enlightened persons' trying to teach us how to become enlightened like them.
This is true in many cases, not all.
Mind cannot find Truth because there's nothing for it to find
True- and mind can’t find Nothing.
, but it can avoid the obvious.
In spiritually- it always does.
This avoidance has to be addressed, and so one must deal with the mind and look and see what's going on.
It's not a "must". But it is a way, it can helpful for a while. But there comes a time when it is done, when it has served its purpose. When you can go no further, and don't need to. And if you stick with it, it will keep you from what you really want.
There may or may not be the willingness to do this, but understanding the need for it can be helpful,
along with a deep longing that cannot turn away.
That longing itself is it. Turn to it, instead of thought.
Thought is form- what is longed for is formless.
Suffering and futility are the strong motivators. When one is wanting to escape from his self created prison, it helps when it's on fire.
Yes. No argument.
To Green Eggs and Ham!
Lexi- There is that which works and that which does not work- which is most methods.
Being still and looking and seeing works.
Whether you don't see a single method or not is irrelevant.
And I am not saying there is a single method, but I am saying that thinking and questioning is a questionable method, and at the very least is takes a looooooong time. Do any of us know how much time we have?
As far as 'balking'- get over it! What part of you balks at the idea of looking and seeing without thought Even if it were stated as the only method? Why not just do it, yeah, just do it- and Then you can determine how effective it is. Give yourself a few months of looking at space, looking at stillness, being still- and Then give your opinion. Otherwise you really don't know what you're talking about here.
Looking, alone, only results in seeing if there is the willingness to see. Otherwise one can sit and meditate and look for decades and not realize anything of real value, which happens.
Elementary.
Stopping the thoughts is only possible if there's the willingness to not think,
In a practice, yes. Thought can stop with hearing a siren, or many other things with no willingness.
The object is not “No Thought”. The object is to See Clearly. This requires no thought. Putting one’s attention in the body highly reduces thought. It is not stopping thought, thought just dissolves, and if it comes up, it isn’t fed so it dissipates. Attention is what is about. If one’s attention is in thought, it is not in Stillness, Silence, Awakening, God.
and I don't mean a conscious desire to not think, which is in direct conflict with unconscious desires, or a practice would not be needed at all.
How hard is it to not think?
It is the hardest thing of all. Being still is the hardest thing of all. Being still is death of the self, of the ego. One might die a thousand times.
The practice itself is a self delusion. How much practice does it take to drop a diamond in the ocean?
What does that have to do with being still, and having no thought?
The issue becomes one of willingness, not practice. If there is willingness, the 'practice' will be instantly and effortlessly successful.
If there is not the willingness, decades of practice will result in failure, and if it's a total failure it may result in liberation.
Why would one practice if they weren’t willing?
But yes, total failure may result in liberation- whether a practicer or not.
Irreconcilable failure is the only possible goal for a practicer.
That is a mighty big, fixed statement. And not true. Nisagadatta had his I Am practice, and he was Realized.
So the issue of willingness must also be addressed in almost every case. This involves conditioning of the mind; beliefs, fears, ignorance, unconsciousness. With unconscious motivations in place as one does his looking practice of no-thought,
nothing will be seen.
Bingo!!!
Mind is very good at not seeing what it doesn't want to see.
I suggest you repeat that out loud many times.
Even the most obvious denial or projection cannot be seen without the willingness to see it, and since it IS obvious, the willingness and the seeing become the same.
You mention willingness a lot. How willing are you?
Are you willing enough to try to be still? Even though your mind gives so many reasons why this is futile. If you are truly willing, you’d be willing to try it.
This is why unconsciousness is so intractable. This function of unconsciousness is to hide it from ourselves, and so it's a given that there is not the willingness to see it, until there is.
I’m not interested in unconsciousness,. I am interested in being Conscious. A way to do this is to be still, no thought, look and see.
A child-like curiosity is very useful in this, a bit like a baby exploring that interesting wheat thresher. Some parts of the 'me' are likely to be accidentally lost, which is really the only way it CAN be lost.
That’s just not true. There are other ways. Tolle’s ego ‘popped like a soap bubble.’
Looking 'beyond mind' is critical because mind contains nothing but it's own illusions and 'proof' of the validity of those illusions (or they wouldn't be held to be true),
Agree.
but without a focus of mind all that is seen is the emptiness that 'we' are,
Right!
obscured by the unwillingness to notice that 'we' are That.
“Unable” would be a more accurate word than unwillingness.
To mind it's simply empty.
Yes, to mind it is perceived emptiness- which threatens its life- the identification with mind, the self, the ego. Mind cannot know emptiness. It cannot go there.
Mind states and woo woo experiences may happen, which mind immediately claims as it's own, and even if realization occurs, it's found that one cannot 'stay there' as the 'me' identity has not been dissolved because nobody wants to look at it. This is how we find so many 'enlightened persons' trying to teach us how to become enlightened like them.
This is true in many cases, not all.
Mind cannot find Truth because there's nothing for it to find
True- and mind can’t find Nothing.
, but it can avoid the obvious.
In spiritually- it always does.
This avoidance has to be addressed, and so one must deal with the mind and look and see what's going on.
It's not a "must". But it is a way, it can helpful for a while. But there comes a time when it is done, when it has served its purpose. When you can go no further, and don't need to. And if you stick with it, it will keep you from what you really want.
There may or may not be the willingness to do this, but understanding the need for it can be helpful,
along with a deep longing that cannot turn away.
That longing itself is it. Turn to it, instead of thought.
Thought is form- what is longed for is formless.
Suffering and futility are the strong motivators. When one is wanting to escape from his self created prison, it helps when it's on fire.
Yes. No argument.
To Green Eggs and Ham!