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Post by enigma on Nov 30, 2010 16:34:16 GMT -5
The "stop thinking" approach... I know that it has worked for some, but I also know many that spend their whole lives doing this and never actually wake up. I've seen too many fail to stand behind the no-thinking approach. I hope I'm not offending anybody, I know that many stand behind their methods or practices. And if you are awake, great, keep doing what you're doing. I think the proof is in the pudding... How many people are waking up using a particular method? If you are not awake, I think this is a valid question to be asking... What's the success rate? Yes, and to perhaps push it a little further, the 'no thinking' approach can and often does lead to mind states, and these mind states can then be grasped as Self realization or the knowing of something. All mind states come and go and so the 'person' is left with the memory of an experience of oneness realization or no-me or whatever it is. Since it's not actually a realization but just a mind state, it's not transformative, and the 'person' is left with the 'knowing' that there is no person because the person has experienced this, which is absurd. Meditate long enough or take enough of the right drugs and you too can be a Self realized non-person. Hehe It's all part of the spiritual circus.
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Post by m on Nov 30, 2010 16:55:10 GMT -5
Nobody has ever found something that never was. m
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 30, 2010 16:55:25 GMT -5
Nobody,
Still with all your posts which sound right and correct you are only dealing with the intellect that's it no more. When your focus is extreme and your desire is extreme what happens is something gets made up by the mind. This something is cloned to you the same genotype of who you are but who you are in the illusion of body/mind. This is not waking up what it is has to do with a manufactured illusion by illusion to give you a certain"truth" and satisfaction that you finally know who you are it's nothing more than this but you will never know this unless you actually get past the mind into what I call real truth. You will not even believe what I just wrote here because the illusion you have made by the forces of desire has created the perfect illusion of waking up for you. There is only one way out of this trap or you will forever be where you are.
You have to go beyond the mind, beyond consciousness to really see/be the truth there is no other way. As you do this be prepared it has a very strong effect on your illusion.there are no pointers or thinking, words or mind at this place. The most that can be said of it and this doesn't really tell you how it is because it's just words is you have a sense of falling into a abyss and the more you let go of everything your body/mind has stored the deeper you go. You will come out on the other side of true reality if you are strong enough to adsorb what is happening when you make it then you truly realized you are one of the awaken ones. You will have a hard time for sometime in the physical body it will be very difficult at first to see any separation in the world or boundaries in a way you will feel like you got throw into some quantum soup. Later you will begin to function but not as before. What you call insight will be perfect and complete. Needless to say but very very few get to this place. There is probably more than one would think but in numbers if would be a very small fraction. Anything less than this is only the mind playing with you. The mind is extremely subtle it will show you that you are now in a place outside the mind it will give you whatever you desire and it will turn that desire into the perfect illusion of truth.
Peace Michael
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Post by Portto on Nov 30, 2010 18:45:41 GMT -5
Your mother kept calling a body that came out of her body "Tee-town" or something similar to that. As it developed, the body's mind imagined that the body was separate from everything else and carried the name that other people kept calling it. It began to think, "I am Tee-town. I am here and everything else is "out there" separate from me." This basic assumption of separateness was never examined. Gradually, the entire imagined universe began to revolve around the idea of "Tee-town." The mind has become so dominant that it now controls how the universe is perceived. The IDEA of Tee-town is so strong that it over-rides sense data and contradictory evidence. The idea is reinforced a thousand times (or more) each day. If you become sufficiently still, the idea/image/feeling of "Tee-town" will be seen for what it is--an idea, only. Withdraw attention from Tee-town and Tee-town will disintegrate, and you will get a big laugh. Sounds really good and this is my experience as well, but let’s see if we can sharpen the sword. Saying that “A” is the cause of “B” is an arbitrary premise associated with the unidirectional passing of time. For any A and B pair, B can very well be the cause of A. It seems to me that in reality, things don’t cause other things. Is there something that caused the first ‘individual’, the first ‘parent’, to see separation and tell about it to his/her children? Did Eve bite the apple without God’s ‘help’? It all comes back to separation being imaginary. What is causing imagination? Why do we imagine separation? What is causing ‘cause’? Imagination is not what we think it is, separation is not what we think it is. As ZD is saying, stop dividing/thinking and we can see it for what it is.
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Post by klaus on Nov 30, 2010 20:38:05 GMT -5
Self-inquiry is not a process to find out who or what you are but to stop you in your tracks....to hit that final wall so to speak.
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Post by Portto on Nov 30, 2010 21:22:46 GMT -5
The illusion is a belief. You say stop believing, Lexi says stop thinking, I say look and see. This may involve thinking and questioning beliefs. Yes, that can be a fruitful approach. However, logic/thinking can prove anything, especially if there's no 'physical knowledge' involved.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 30, 2010 21:37:43 GMT -5
nobody, unlike some members here it is a process. Intellectually you can reason you dropped everything but this is far from being awaken. I don't believe in mentioning names but i assure you most of the members here have never even meditated. They think just because they put 2 and 2 together and sit still they are awaken . In noway is this possible. To begin when a person truly awakens it's extremely energetic shift your own body wisdom protects you from going that far. But by chance you were able to do this without any training it would kill you he body mind is a illusion but a live illusion and the body is the container and it has to become stronger and stronger. Now not to mislead any one but this NOT a Kundlini awakening you may have heard of. Michael
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Post by nobody on Nov 30, 2010 21:50:44 GMT -5
To begin when a person truly awakens it's extremely energetic shift your own body wisdom protects you from going that far. This sounds familiar. I've had a number of experiences. Although, I don't care to describe them in detail. But they were very frightening, confusing, and I did feel like I going to die. But by chance you were able to do this without any training I don't know what you are saying here. it would kill you he body mind is a illusion but a live illusion and the body is the container and it has to become stronger and stronger. Now not to mislead any one but this NOT a Kundlini awakening you may have heard of. Michael Are you saying that physical death is possible?
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Post by enigma on Nov 30, 2010 21:53:23 GMT -5
The illusion is a belief. You say stop believing, Lexi says stop thinking, I say look and see. This may involve thinking and questioning beliefs. Yes, that can be a fruitful approach. However, logic/thinking can prove anything, especially if there's no 'physical knowledge' involved. Looking and seeing is not the same as logic and thinking.
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 30, 2010 22:01:18 GMT -5
Enigma you are correct with the lower levels they are different but when you truly awaken it's not looking or seeing or anything else that has to do with individual thinking.
Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Nov 30, 2010 22:15:14 GMT -5
This sounds familiar. I've had a number of experiences. Although, I don't care to describe them in detail. But they were very frightening, confusing, and I did feel like I going to die.
Good
I don't know what you are saying here.
By training I mean going within for a long time ZD went 7 years I think before he was awaken those 7 years of Zen prepared him. Nisargadatta spent 3 years with his guru before he awakened
Are you saying that physical death is possible?
Yes it is possible but not probable you would probably go insane not die. Being awaken is a lot more than people think. Mot of the time one gets so disorientated because they now see no separation and cannot make sense of anything. You can imagine what a few days would do to you. Believe me in that place their is no time and you will honestly feel like you have died and no sense of time also so it will feel like it never ends.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Nov 30, 2010 23:02:34 GMT -5
Enigma you are correct with the lower levels they are different but when you truly awaken it's not looking or seeing or anything else that has to do with individual thinking. Michael For one who is "truly awakened" why would any approach at all be needed?
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Post by m on Dec 1, 2010 5:45:16 GMT -5
Nobody said " What is the success rate ? "
I, till today, have no evidence of any success.
Who can be done ? What that means? How do you know ?
For me, self inquiry was first a dream than a gift.
45 years i'm looking for the path I'am walking on. i could not find any path, nor anything on it, but I'm still searching.
experiences are just experiences, deepening is deepening: I love it . But although I may seem overprepared I never awakened to anything. So how could I be sure anybody has on this forum?
But i believe (may be wrong) That i sure can tell who is consciously or not a "fake". How can i do that? i don't know.
m
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Post by zendancer on Dec 1, 2010 8:41:38 GMT -5
Nobody and M brought up the issue of "success rates." It would be interesting to know if, among various teachers, one style of teaching is significantly more effective than others. It would be fairly hard to figure this out because some teachers (such as Tolle) have a huge audience, and therefore reach more students than others. Some teachers sanction students to teach and others do not.
I do not know exact numbers (and the numbers are changing all the time), but I'm sure that Adyashanti has sanctioned at least ten people to teach in his tradition, and Gangaji has probably sanctioned an equal number of people in her tradition (including John Sherman, Amber, Carlos, etc.) Tony Parsons has apparently been very successful at waking people up, but I don't know if he gives any formal recognition to anyone. As for different teachings, they go something like this:
1. Ramesh Balsekar: Everything that is happening is God's will. The illusion of being a do-er is an illusion, but there is no one who can do anything to dispel it. If you're meant to wake up, you will; otherwise, tough luck. 2. Tony Parsons: No one has ever existed and no one is now speaking. No one has ever bought a pair of shoes. There is no seeker. All that is happening is This. This is all there is. 3. Ramana Maharshi: There is only the Self (God). Do self inquiry until you wake up, realize this, and enjoy the bliss of union. 4. Papaji: Stop and be still. See what is here and now. 5. Nisargadatta: Stay in the “I AM” until you wake up 5. Most Zen Masters: Sit down, shut up, do zazen, fall into samadhi, drop off body and mind, discover emptiness/your true self nature, and attain satori (waking up experience). 6. Byron Katie: Don’t believe your ideas. Attain non-abidance in the mind. Do "the work" (use the four questions to become free of the mind). 7. Tolle: Meditate, get into the body, do self-inquiry, stop and be still, etc. Teaches a “shotgun approach” that covers everything. 8. Adyashanti: Shotgun approach with a Zen flavor. 9. Gangaji: Stop and be still. See what is here now. Uses silence and personal energy to focus people upon what is actual. Often dissects the nature of the illusory world. 10. Tai Chi masters and martial arts masters: Attend the physical movements of the body until you lose yourself in the movement and become free of the mind. 11. Tae Heng Sunim: Meditate and become one-with the Ju In Gong, (God) 12. Tim Freke: Shotgun approach 13. My teaching: Shift attention from thoughts to what can be seen or heard until you can see through the illusory world created by mind, penetrate the illusion of selfhood, and attain non-abidance in the mind.
Feel free to add other teachers to this list or modify how you perceive their teachings. I suspect that if every teacher on this list taught a hundred students, Tony Parsons would have the highest success rate at precipitating initial enlightenment experiences. His approach seems to have maximum “shock power” and it stops peoples’ minds in their tracks, but whether they remain awake after those initial experiences is unknown. My guess is that it takes most people many years (or decades) of focusing upon the actual to become free of the mind and to enjoy non-existence (feel playful) in the emptiness of the Absolute.
(With these comments I now smile and do a series of cartwheels across the stage while whispering, "Don't be attached to these words.")
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 1, 2010 13:36:31 GMT -5
Looking and seeing- simply looking and seeing- there is no thought. If there is thinking there is not looking and seeing.
What is looking and seeing is the space, the awareness between the thoughts. Then the thought happens. But one can go without any thought for a quite a while. Or thoughts come but they are not paid attention to. Just the looking, the seeing, that which looks, that which sees.
Thinking and questioning beliefs are fine, but they will not reveal Reality. Though they may lead one to looking and seeing and no thought.
Stopping beliefs is like asking to stop one's breathing. Nice idea but it doesn't work.
Taking periods of time where one simply looks, looks at the tree, looks at the spaces between the leaves, looks. That is that which dissolves the illusion and reveals Reality. Which ultimately is within. Or the same as One- where within and without are recognized as One. No separation, no duality, no illusion.
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