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Post by laughter on Nov 30, 2019 5:24:34 GMT -5
In terms of a person in the world, people will have varying degrees of objectivity about what they perceive. In terms of nondual totality, there is no "things as they are", nor is there an "as we are". In either event, projection is far from a foregone conclusion, and I'd dare characterize the absence of it in terms of simple sanity. So how come a human consciousness is being found then? And then because it's been found it must then be made extinct. I'd rather not stand up a straw-roy beyond my initial speculation of a potentially open-mind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 5:42:35 GMT -5
I'll accept that as a healthy example of boundary making.
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Post by roydop on Nov 30, 2019 6:21:24 GMT -5
Yea an anti thought mentality is often just a split mind identified as a thought controller. Think when you want to. Don’t think when you don’t want to. ( which is what’s going on already anyway ) If you’re thinking and don’t want to be, that’s inner division, or an underlying emotional issue. That’s when meditation practices start, to get rid of unwanted emotions, which never works, but does create a side effect and the enlightened ego issue, which can last a lifetime apparently. Tolle's question about "have you found the off switch?" was one that I found a non-issue when I first read it. I'd never considered thought to be a problem, but I guess some people sometimes do. In retrospect, I can see that insomnia was related to the issue. But the flip side is that I wasn't conscious of a sense of identity that had at it's foundation a baseline mental/emotional inner-tension. It is the complete and utter absence of that - which can be temporary, or it can be permanent - that rezzes with me in all the discussions about being able to "stop thinking". It's not the cessation of thought that matters, it's the cessation of identifying with the false, which happens mostly unconsciously. The endless stream of thought and emotion is just a byproduct. Beyond that, some people with no reference for it can mistake the descriptions for a blanked-out state of mind - some with a positive outlook, some negative. Still others have deep experiential points of reference for it in terms of surrendered action, but object to the implications of the falseness of the "little-me". The only response i have to animosity is detached curiosity.
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Post by roydop on Nov 30, 2019 6:29:17 GMT -5
If you take it personally, she's achieved her goal. I don't actually have a goal, I just find it humorous that a man that wants to eliminate the whole of humanity within twenty years, can so easily be triggered by a non-agreement with his ideas. i'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that there is "triggering" occurring. i have found, like Gary Weber, emotions don't really occur within this consciousness anymore. There's a steady baseline of stillness that is now the main focus/perspective.
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Post by roydop on Nov 30, 2019 6:40:05 GMT -5
If you take it personally, she's achieved her goal. I don't actually have a goal, I just find it humorous that a man that wants to eliminate the whole of humanity within twenty years, can so easily be triggered by a non-agreement with his ideas. Because i see, as clearly as the tree outside my window, the immediate extinction of the species, that means i want it to happen? Your inability to remain objective is really starting to show.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 7:46:01 GMT -5
Yes, some people will rezz with Tolle's question, and some will not. One seemingly crazy thought stopped his mind and catapulted him into a world where all of his problems disappeared. Some people will believe that he accurately described what happened to him, and some will not. One size does not fit all. In an instant, he realized an internal schism. "Am I one, or two? If I cannot live with myself any longer, there must be two of me: the 'I' and the 'self' that 'I' cannot live with". It's never not the same question, the existential question: "why can't I stop thinking?", "what is it that will stop this constant thinking?", "what is the source of thought?". I didn't know that most people can't stop thinking at will, and, of course, I understand what you mean by that. Often people will object to the advice to meditate or ATA or something similar by pointing out that this advice is suggesting to the person that they have control over something they really don't. As you say, one size does not fit all. Some people, like Tolle, will realize the end of the mind-split in an instant by some sort of catalyst, like, in his case, extreme psychological suffering. Other's might encounter this same realization correlated to any number of different ways to arrive at a quiescent body/mind. Now, the observations of the people who object to the advice to meditate, are not wrong, it's just, that's not the whole story, and it's a story that doesn't have a formula for an ending. Exactly. Yes, it appears that people have no control over what's happening, but this idea is based upon the fiction of the SVP. In truth, no SVP ever talks to another SVP because SVP's are illusions created by reflective thought and cultural conditioning. Any time advice is given it is Self talking to Self, and Self does whatever it does in response. This is the basis of Zen koans that challenge the idea of volition versus no volition. It's like asking someone, "Do you have free will or not?" If the individual answers either yes or no, it shows that they're still stuck in reflective thought. A different kind of answer is required to make the issue crystal clear and demonstrate understanding. People who start searching for the truth begin by assuming, incorrectly, that they've an SVP who needs to find something, understand something, or attain something. They don't realize what has initiated the search or what will either discover the truth, or not.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 7:55:16 GMT -5
Because i see, as clearly as the tree outside my window, the immediate extinction of the species, that means i want it to happen? Your inability to remain objective is really starting to show. oh well we had a good run Ironically, it will probably be a pretty short run compared to trilobites, horseshoe crabs, and German co*kroaches , but looked at from a broader perspective, even if this entire universe disappears what we are will still be here. As Ramana reportedly said on his deathbed, "Where could I possibly go?"
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 8:23:29 GMT -5
Yea an anti thought mentality is often just a split mind identified as a thought controller. Think when you want to. Don’t think when you don’t want to. ( which is what’s going on already anyway ) If you’re thinking and don’t want to be, that’s inner division, or an underlying emotional issue. That’s when meditation practices start, to get rid of unwanted emotions, which never works, but does create a side effect and the enlightened ego issue, which can last a lifetime apparently. Your thoughts took a dark turn as you were wrapping up. Maybe it's an unresolved emotional issue.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 9:08:23 GMT -5
Not that I'm a fan of Tolle or that I am not, indifference, but he had an interesting take on the question of creativity and nonduality. I believe it was some conference regarding creativity, lots of big big heads, famous ones, including Tolle, maybe Laughy too. Tolle said while watching World Cup penalty kicks he noted players who paused before they kicked were generally more successful. He surmised they tapped into something deep, prior to thought. And not to discount presence or putting all your attention in what you’re doing. If you can get lost in an activity your results or output will be more efficient than when you’re daydreaming or worried about what happened yesterday. But excessive worry or inability to concentrate result from minds emotional management strategies, that obviously don’t work because they are an expression of self avoidance and thus create a projected sense of division. Not thinking isn’t going to cure that dysfunction. Becoming conscious will. On the flip side, the more conscious you are the more in harmony with universal intelligence you will be. Your desires won’t be an expression of seeking or avoidance and so when you need something a wave of synchronicity will allow it to arrive, not because a desire was forced in to the matrix, but rather discovered through interaction with it. I just wonder why your critique always points out, towards others. The notion of sharing seems to be quite foreign. What emotional management strategies do you employ?
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 30, 2019 9:30:59 GMT -5
People who start searching for the truth begin by assuming, incorrectly, that they've an SVP who needs to find something, understand something, or attain something. They don't realize what has initiated the search or what will either discover the truth, or not. Firstly, it's unavoidable for someone starting the search to think that they are anything but an SVP and secondly, it doesn't matter. If they are unfortunate enough to meet a teacher who keeps telling them that they are not an SVP then they are likely to make the mistake of constructing some kind of non SVP concept in its place which is still an SVP. So it's better to carry on being an SVP if that's what you think you are until such time that you discover you are not.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 9:50:14 GMT -5
People who start searching for the truth begin by assuming, incorrectly, that they've an SVP who needs to find something, understand something, or attain something. They don't realize what has initiated the search or what will either discover the truth, or not. Firstly, it's unavoidable for someone starting the search to think that they are anything but an SVP and secondly, it doesn't matter. If they are unfortunate enough to meet a teacher who keeps telling them that they are not an SVP then they are likely to make the mistake of constructing some kind of non SVP concept in its place which is still an SVP. So it's better to carry on being an SVP if that's what you think you are until such time that you discover you are not. Can't lose either way. Loss would only be possible if there were actual separation.
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 30, 2019 10:01:13 GMT -5
Can't lose either way. Loss would only be possible if there were actual separation. That's like saying thirst would only be possible if the mirage was an actual oasis in the desert.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 10:54:10 GMT -5
Can't lose either way. Loss would only be possible if there were actual separation. That's like saying thirst would only be possible if the mirage was an actual oasis in the desert. Not the same at all, but not worth arguing about. Have a great day.
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Post by satchitananda on Nov 30, 2019 10:59:37 GMT -5
That's like saying thirst would only be possible if the mirage was an actual oasis in the desert. Not the same at all, but not worth arguing about. Have a great day. I think it's the same and it's worth arguing about it. In fact I insist you argue about it. If you refuse I will let the air out of your tires.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 30, 2019 11:11:24 GMT -5
Not the same at all, but not worth arguing about. Have a great day. I think it's the same and it's worth arguing about it. In fact I insist you argue about it. If you refuse I will let the air out of your tires.
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