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Post by laughter on Mar 21, 2021 18:39:05 GMT -5
I'm not inclined to disagree that you can detatch from even the troubling thought streams. But given that RM tied these thinking patterns to vasanas and insisted SR was not possible without the removal of those vasanas, which are essentially conditioning, how is that detachment possible? Now ZD says he saw through the conditioning and it seems the troubling thoughts don't arise. Spira suggests these thoughts will persist though loosing their "stickiness" over time until they eventually fade. I can kind of relate to the Spira model where I catch myself getting on the train and quickly hop off with a "not again." But I also find myself in lucid, sometimes prolonged periods(days) where there is silence. Not that either is wrong or right, but my preference, from a purely hedonistic perspective, is silence. Putting conditioning into perspective of the biggest picture doesn't make it irrelevant. It's the same with suffering. People really are suffering. Seeing how the root of that is an illusion doesn't make it go away for anyone but the one who realizes this, and it doesn't make the suffering of other's unimportant. If anything, it allows a different sort of re-conditioning, toward being able to understand and tolerate the pain people act out. To be clear and honest, I can't claim to be "free of all vassana's". I don't dismiss this as a possible potential for others, but the distinction between that and the realization is quite clear to me.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 19:08:21 GMT -5
I'm not inclined to disagree that you can detatch from even the troubling thought streams. But given that RM tied these thinking patterns to vasanas and insisted SR was not possible without the removal of those vasanas, which are essentially conditioning, how is that detachment possible? Now ZD says he saw through the conditioning and it seems the troubling thoughts don't arise. Spira suggests these thoughts will persist though loosing their "stickiness" over time until they eventually fade. I can kind of relate to the Spira model where I catch myself getting on the train and quickly hop off with a "not again." But I also find myself in lucid, sometimes prolonged periods(days) where there is silence. Not that either is wrong or right, but my preference, from a purely hedonistic perspective, is silence. Putting conditioning into perspective of the biggest picture doesn't make it irrelevant. It's the same with suffering. People really are suffering. Seeing how the root of that is an illusion doesn't make it go away for anyone but the one who realizes this, and it doesn't make the suffering of other's unimportant. If anything, it allows a different sort of re-conditioning, toward being able to understand and tolerate the pain people act out. To be clear and honest, I can't claim to be "free of all vassana's". I don't dismiss this as a possible potential for others, but the distinction between that and the realization is quite clear to me. I associate compassion and empathy with silence, beauty. This is why "love your enemies, do good to those who harm you" is the most useful pointer, the biggest wrench that can be thrown into my mental chainsaw.
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Post by inavalan on Mar 21, 2021 20:03:25 GMT -5
Putting conditioning into perspective of the biggest picture doesn't make it irrelevant. It's the same with suffering. People really are suffering. Seeing how the root of that is an illusion doesn't make it go away for anyone but the one who realizes this, and it doesn't make the suffering of other's unimportant. If anything, it allows a different sort of re-conditioning, toward being able to understand and tolerate the pain people act out. To be clear and honest, I can't claim to be "free of all vassana's". I don't dismiss this as a possible potential for others, but the distinction between that and the realization is quite clear to me. I associate compassion and empathy with silence, beauty. This is why "love your enemies, do good to those who harm you" is the most useful pointer, the biggest wrench that can be thrown into my mental chainsaw. I believe that that tenet is a misinterpretation of the warning that the opposite emotions (anger, hate) are bad for us, because our emotions create / attract into our physical lives situations that will cause more of the same emotions (in this case: more anger, more hate). Nobody can love their enemies, nor those that harm them. That was possible, after long torture in Orwell's "1984":
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Post by inavalan on Mar 21, 2021 20:09:19 GMT -5
Good. But this one's definition is in the Urban Dictionary. That was an attempt to a joke. I didn't know either of the meanings of the word "reefer".
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Post by laughter on Mar 21, 2021 21:54:30 GMT -5
I associate compassion and empathy with silence, beauty. This is why "love your enemies, do good to those who harm you" is the most useful pointer, the biggest wrench that can be thrown into my mental chainsaw. I believe that that tenet is a misinterpretation of the warning that the opposite emotions (anger, hate) are bad for us, because our emotions create / attract into our physical lives situations that will cause more of the same emotions (in this case: more anger, more hate). Nobody can love their enemies, nor those that harm them. That was possible, after long torture in Orwell's "1984": No, that's really what Jesus meant. Literally. Love those who despise, hate and seek to injure you. There's this guy, Father Joe, and he likes to emphasize - by repeating it, and verbally underlining it - just how radical this idea was. And still is. There's also an evil frog that used to come around here and get everyone all riled up telling them that noone was really ever to blame for anything because they didn't have any free will.
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Post by laughter on Mar 21, 2021 21:56:58 GMT -5
Good. But this one's definition is in the Urban Dictionary. That was an attempt to a joke. I didn't know either of the meanings of the word "reefer". yes, I've started to notice all the levity. As for Mary Jane, it's also (occasionally) our moderator's nickname. Perhaps you're belying your (relative) youth.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 22, 2021 11:05:33 GMT -5
I believe that that tenet is a misinterpretation of the warning that the opposite emotions (anger, hate) are bad for us, because our emotions create / attract into our physical lives situations that will cause more of the same emotions (in this case: more anger, more hate). Nobody can love their enemies, nor those that harm them. That was possible, after long torture in Orwell's "1984": No, that's really what Jesus meant. Literally. Love those who despise, hate and seek to injure you. There's this guy, Father Joe, and he likes to emphasize - by repeating it, and verbally underlining it - just how radical this idea was. And still is. There's also an evil frog that used to come around here and get everyone all riled up telling them that noone was really ever to blame for anything because they didn't have any free will. The frog was absolutely right. But don't tell him that. His head is already enlarged. DI'd you see there's a shot for idiocy? You and I should get in line.π
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Post by inavalan on Mar 22, 2021 12:25:16 GMT -5
what if that inner guide in your head was actually just mind putting on the sage cap We make adjustments as we go. Unreasonable fear of errors freezes us. Somebody said something like: foolish people believe that; nobody's born foolish; they're foolish because they believe that.
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Post by laughter on Mar 22, 2021 18:05:58 GMT -5
what if that inner guide in your head was actually just mind putting on the sage cap A question worthy of self-honest reflection if there ever was one.
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Post by laughter on Mar 22, 2021 18:07:48 GMT -5
No, that's really what Jesus meant. Literally. Love those who despise, hate and seek to injure you. There's this guy, Father Joe, and he likes to emphasize - by repeating it, and verbally underlining it - just how radical this idea was. And still is. There's also an evil frog that used to come around here and get everyone all riled up telling them that noone was really ever to blame for anything because they didn't have any free will. The frog was absolutely right. But don't tell him that. His head is already enlarged. DI'd you see there's a shot for idiocy? You and I should get in line.π ".. βͺ blowin' through the buttons of our coats β« .."
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Post by inavalan on Mar 23, 2021 12:23:33 GMT -5
We make adjustments as we go. Unreasonable fear of errors freezes us. Somebody said something like: f oolish people believe that; nobody's born foolish; they're foolish because they believe that. I'd be careful applying words like foolish or confused to others, I don't think the inner guide would suggest judging or comparing or complaining Those were (allegedly) Buddha's words in Chapter #25 of the Diamond Sutra. Surely, the Sutra might've misquoted him. The foolishness related to those that believe that Buddha does or can enlighten them. The inner-guide, as far as I know, guides the whole-you to do whatever it "incarnated" to learn to do. It has nothing to do with the purposes and judgments, and criteria, and complaining we do here most of the time. So, I agree with you on this, but for different reasons than you seem to believe that ("it isn't nice to do that").
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Post by inavalan on Mar 23, 2021 12:26:40 GMT -5
A question worthy of self-honest reflection if there ever was one. I don't think the reflection cap is much different from the sage cap I think that reflection and sage are related concepts. One can be either one only, both, or none. Independent variables. What's more unfortunate is that we can't say who's sage, who's delusional, who's a snake oil salesman. That's why our inner-guidance is our only hope, in my opinion.
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Post by laughter on Mar 23, 2021 13:55:24 GMT -5
A question worthy of self-honest reflection if there ever was one. I don't think the reflection cap is much different from the sage cap Doesn't even take a sage to discern that this is yet another of the myriad forms of the existential question. It's just "who/what am I?", particularized.
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Post by inavalan on Mar 23, 2021 15:05:25 GMT -5
I don't think the reflection cap is much different from the sage cap Doesn't even take a sage to discern that this is yet another of the myriad forms of the existential question. It's just "who/what am I?", particularized. So, "who/what am I"? (each one of us)
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Post by zendancer on Mar 23, 2021 16:06:08 GMT -5
Doesn't even take a sage to discern that this is yet another of the myriad forms of the existential question. It's just "who/what am I?", particularized. So, "who/what am I"? (each one of us) Speak! Speak!
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