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Post by zendancer on Mar 20, 2021 11:52:34 GMT -5
First you said your mind is very busy, now you're saying it doesn't exist. Which is it? I get what esp is saying. That ego, mind, separate "I", is an illusion, but still lots of thoughts are occurring. What I struggle with is how can there be peace then, but lots of folks including esponja, laughy, Satch and a few others maintain that the thought chatter can flow freely and they somehow disregard it, don't engage, ignore it. I believe them. I just can't do it. If the chatter happens then I'm off on a ride. Hedderman has the same experience as esponka et al. He puts it this way. "The train still goes by, but I just don't get on." Correct. As long as there's a separate "I," the "I" will usually get taken for a ride by internal chatter. The illusion of selfhood has to be seen through in order for there to be a continuous flow of life uninterrupted by "sticky" thoughts. After realizing that who I had thought I was was just a story, or set of identifying thoughts, it became obvious that THIS is all there is, and THIS is what does everything. In short, what we are is "what is" momentarily manifesting as human beings. In the case of this character many past patterns of self-referential thinking simply ceased to occur. The thinker of all thoughts is THIS and there is no personal volitional entity at the center of what's happening or at the center of thinking. When there is no "me," "me" can't get taken for a ride. Furthermore, the sense of there being a separation between "inside" and "outside" will also collapse. Norio Kushi says that he remembers the exact moment when thoughts ceased to be "sticky." I don't remember a specific moment like that, but the end result was the same. The way I describe life beyond being an SVP is like a continual state of samadhi--being one-with whatever is happening. There is also a total acceptance of whatever is happening. It's like totally being absorbed in whatever is being done. If I'm digging a ditch, I'm just digging a ditch. Full stop. It's not special, but it is empty of many common kinds of thinking (no comparing, no second-guessing, no fantasizing, no attachment thinking, etc). If a meteor suddenly crashed into a residence that I'm currently building, my attitude would be, "Far out! Okay, what needs to be done now?" haha. There would never be a thought like, "That shouldn't have happened," or "Poor me." Suzanne Segal stated it pretty well in her book, "You do whatever needs to be done, and then you do the next thing that has to be done." Zen Master Seung Sahn used to tell his students, "Only go straight; don't know," and "Just do it!" This was long before Nike commercials came on TV using that phrase. What he was advising his students to do was to "get into" whatever they were doing and to stop thinking about it or second-guessing themselves.
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Post by laughter on Mar 20, 2021 13:55:49 GMT -5
First you said your mind is very busy, now you're saying it doesn't exist. Which is it? I get what esp is saying. That ego, mind, separate "I", is an illusion, but still lots of thoughts are occurring. What I struggle with is how can there be peace then, but lots of folks including esponja, laughy, Satch and a few others maintain that the thought chatter can flow freely and they somehow disregard it, don't engage, ignore it. I believe them. I just can't do it. If the chatter happens then I'm off on a ride. Hedderman has the same experience as esponka et al. He puts it this way. "The train still goes by, but I just don't get on." Seems to me also that not everyone has a chainsaw in their head, even if they're just a typical people person who never got interested in meditation or identity. Not to say this was me - definitely not all the time - but not everyone gets to a point where their mind bugs them. And, distraction, imagination and tangled trains of thought can happen even in a rather impersonal sort of context.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 11:41:21 GMT -5
I'm not inclined to disagree that you can detatch from even the troubling thought streams. But given that RM tied these thinking patterns to vasanas and insisted SR was not possible without the removal of those vasanas, which are essentially conditioning, how is that detachment possible? Now ZD says he saw through the conditioning and it seems the troubling thoughts don't arise.
Spira suggests these thoughts will persist though loosing their "stickiness" over time until they eventually fade.
I can kind of relate to the Spira model where I catch myself getting on the train and quickly hop off with a "not again."
But I also find myself in lucid, sometimes prolonged periods(days) where there is silence.
Not that either is wrong or right, but my preference, from a purely hedonistic perspective, is silence.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 12:48:12 GMT -5
I'm not inclined to disagree that you can detatch from even the troubling thought streams. But given that RM tied these thinking patterns to vasanas and insisted SR was not possible without the removal of those vasanas, which are essentially conditioning, how is that detachment possible? Now ZD says he saw through the conditioning and it seems the troubling thoughts don't arise. Spira suggests these thoughts will persist though loosing their "stickiness" over time until they eventually fade. I can kind of relate to the Spira model where I catch myself getting on the train and quickly hop off with a "not again." But I also find myself in lucid, sometimes prolonged periods(days) where there is silence. Not that either is wrong or right, but my preference, from a purely hedonistic perspective, is silence. what is conditioning? who's condition? what's the difference between a shrink and a guru? Reefer Madness or the mental tendency that drive some to vilify or glamorize that plant. I have a shrink. But no guru. I can't compare.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 14:02:19 GMT -5
Reefer Madness or the mental tendency that drive some to vilify or glamorize that plant. I have a shrink. But no guru. I can't compare. I meant to write sage instead of guru, but no matter, same same same same on the plant thingy too and I think there are endless things about ourselves to be curious about.. about what makes us tick.. about how to navigate thru life.. lots of stuff to think about. thinking about and assigning levels of importance to.. temporary things Thinkaholism. You're afflicted. 🙃
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Post by zendancer on Mar 21, 2021 15:29:47 GMT -5
I meant to write sage instead of guru, but no matter, same same same same on the plant thingy too and I think there are endless things about ourselves to be curious about.. about what makes us tick.. about how to navigate thru life.. lots of stuff to think about. thinking about and assigning levels of importance to.. temporary things Thinkaholism. You're afflicted. 🙃 "Thinkaholic:" someone who is unconsciously addicted to thinking. That's a fitting word that describes a majority of the human race. My favorite quote from Tolle came during an interview when he was asked, "What is the greatest attainment?" He replied, "Freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I agree, but much more would need to be written about it in order to convey the many pathways to that possibility. More later........
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 21, 2021 16:47:01 GMT -5
Reefer Madness or the mental tendency that drive some to vilify or glamorize that plant. I have a shrink. But no guru. I can't compare. I meant to write sage instead of guru, but no matter, same same same same on the plant thingy too and I think there are endless things about ourselves to be curious about.. about what makes us tick.. about how to navigate thru life.. lots of stuff to think about. thinking about and assigning levels of importance to.. temporary things That you wrote guru when you meant to write sage, that's a result of conditioning.
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Post by inavalan on Mar 21, 2021 16:55:45 GMT -5
what is conditioning? who's condition? what's the difference between a shrink and a guru? Reefer Madness or the mental tendency that drive some to vilify or glamorize that plant. I have a shrink. But no guru. I can't compare. Learned another word ...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 21, 2021 16:56:02 GMT -5
I'm not inclined to disagree that you can detatch from even the troubling thought streams. But given that RM tied these thinking patterns to vasanas and insisted SR was not possible without the removal of those vasanas, which are essentially conditioning, how is that detachment possible? Now ZD says he saw through the conditioning and it seems the troubling thoughts don't arise. Spira suggests these thoughts will persist though loosing their "stickiness" over time until they eventually fade. I can kind of relate to the Spira model where I catch myself getting on the train and quickly hop off with a "not again." But I also find myself in lucid, sometimes prolonged periods(days) where there is silence. Not that either is wrong or right, but my preference, from a purely hedonistic perspective, is silence. what is conditioning? who's condition? what's the difference between a shrink and a guru? A shrink deals with the psychology of what one is. A guru deals with the spirituality of what not-yet is.
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Post by inavalan on Mar 21, 2021 16:58:56 GMT -5
Thinkaholism. You're afflicted. 🙃 "Thinkaholic:" someone who is unconsciously addicted to thinking. That's a fitting word that describes a majority of the human race. My favorite quote from Tolle came during an interview when he was asked, "What is the greatest attainment?" He replied, "Freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I agree, but much more would need to be written about it in order to convey the many pathways to that possibility. More later........ Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!
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Post by inavalan on Mar 21, 2021 17:05:46 GMT -5
I meant to write sage instead of guru, but no matter, same samesame same on the plant thingy too and I think there are endless things about ourselves to be curious about.. about what makes us tick.. about how to navigate thru life.. lots of stuff to think about. thinking about and assigning levels of importance to.. temporary things That you wrote guru when you meant to write sage, that's a result of conditioning. Good observation! Not all gurus are sages.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 21, 2021 17:24:55 GMT -5
I get what esp is saying. That ego, mind, separate "I", is an illusion, but still lots of thoughts are occurring. What I struggle with is how can there be peace then, but lots of folks including esponja, laughy, Satch and a few others maintain that the thought chatter can flow freely and they somehow disregard it, don't engage, ignore it. I believe them. I just can't do it. If the chatter happens then I'm off on a ride. Hedderman has the same experience as esponka et al. He puts it this way. "The train still goes by, but I just don't get on." Correct. As long as there's a separate "I," the "I" will usually get taken for a ride by internal chatter. The illusion of selfhood has to be seen through in order for there to be a continuous flow of life uninterrupted by "sticky" thoughts. After realizing that who I had thought I was was just a story, or set of identifying thoughts, it became obvious that THIS is all there is, and THIS is what does everything. In short, what we are is "what is" momentarily manifesting as human beings. In the case of this character many past patterns of self-referential thinking simply ceased to occur. The thinker of all thoughts is THIS and there is no personal volitional entity at the center of what's happening or at the center of thinking. When there is no "me," "me" can't get taken for a ride. Furthermore, the sense of there being a separation between "inside" and "outside" will also collapse. Norio Kushi says that he remembers the exact moment when thoughts ceased to be "sticky." I don't remember a specific moment like that, but the end result was the same. The way I describe life beyond being an SVP is like a continual state of samadhi--being one-with whatever is happening. There is also a total acceptance of whatever is happening. It's like totally being absorbed in whatever is being done. If I'm digging a ditch, I'm just digging a ditch. Full stop. It's not special, but it is empty of many common kinds of thinking (no comparing, no second-guessing, no fantasizing, no attachment thinking, etc). If a meteor suddenly crashed into a residence that I'm currently building, my attitude would be, "Far out! Okay, what needs to be done now?" haha. There would never be a thought like, "That shouldn't have happened," or "Poor me." Suzanne Segal stated it pretty well in her book, "You do whatever needs to be done, and then you do the next thing that has to be done." Zen Master Seung Sahn used to tell his students, "Only go straight; don't know," and "Just do it!" This was long before Nike commercials came on TV using that phrase. What he was advising his students to do was to "get into" whatever they were doing and to stop thinking about it or second-guessing themselves. one, two. There is a third alternative, can be in the midst of one, but very difficult to do. Can be in the midst of two, relatively easier. The third can-stand-alone, with-nothing-else. sdp only interested in the third, being- conscious. The third is something that not-now-is. It isn't, until it is. one, easy, ordinary. two, not so easy, but possible. third, never-just-happens. third, the only thing that matters, it is not-being-totally-absorbed into whatever is being done. It is never just digging a ditch, never just-doing anything. third is almost impossible, almost. When the third occurs, nothing else means anything, except for it to reoccur. IOW, in relation, one means nothing, two means nothing.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 21, 2021 17:27:54 GMT -5
A shrink deals with the psychology of what one is. A guru deals with the spirituality of what not-yet is. You have that exactly backwards. I am the (an) idiot (wind).
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 17:36:50 GMT -5
Correct. As long as there's a separate "I," the "I" will usually get taken for a ride by internal chatter. The illusion of selfhood has to be seen through in order for there to be a continuous flow of life uninterrupted by "sticky" thoughts. After realizing that who I had thought I was was just a story, or set of identifying thoughts, it became obvious that THIS is all there is, and THIS is what does everything. In short, what we are is "what is" momentarily manifesting as human beings. In the case of this character many past patterns of self-referential thinking simply ceased to occur. The thinker of all thoughts is THIS and there is no personal volitional entity at the center of what's happening or at the center of thinking. When there is no "me," "me" can't get taken for a ride. Furthermore, the sense of there being a separation between "inside" and "outside" will also collapse. Norio Kushi says that he remembers the exact moment when thoughts ceased to be "sticky." I don't remember a specific moment like that, but the end result was the same. The way I describe life beyond being an SVP is like a continual state of samadhi--being one-with whatever is happening. There is also a total acceptance of whatever is happening. It's like totally being absorbed in whatever is being done. If I'm digging a ditch, I'm just digging a ditch. Full stop. It's not special, but it is empty of many common kinds of thinking (no comparing, no second-guessing, no fantasizing, no attachment thinking, etc). If a meteor suddenly crashed into a residence that I'm currently building, my attitude would be, "Far out! Okay, what needs to be done now?" haha. There would never be a thought like, "That shouldn't have happened," or "Poor me." Suzanne Segal stated it pretty well in her book, "You do whatever needs to be done, and then you do the next thing that has to be done." Zen Master Seung Sahn used to tell his students, "Only go straight; don't know," and "Just do it!" This was long before Nike commercials came on TV using that phrase. What he was advising his students to do was to "get into" whatever they were doing and to stop thinking about it or second-guessing themselves. one, two. There is a third alternative, can be in the midst of one, but very difficult to do. Can be in the midst of two, relatively easier. The third can-stand-alone, with-nothing-else. sdp only interested in the third, being- conscious. The third is something that not-now-is. It isn't, until it is. one, easy, ordinary. two, not so easy, but possible. third, never-just-happens. third, the only thing that matters, it is not-being-totally-absorbed into whatever is being done. It is never just digging a ditch, never just-doing anything. third is almost impossible, almost. When the third occurs, nothing else means anything, except for it to reoccur. Self remembering or as others might describe it "being aware of being aware?" Glad you're back.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 21, 2021 17:51:28 GMT -5
Reefer Madness or the mental tendency that drive some to vilify or glamorize that plant. I have a shrink. But no guru. I can't compare. Learned another word ... View AttachmentGood. But this one's definition is in the Urban Dictionary.
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