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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 16:28:07 GMT -5
If you care to re-read the portion of my post that you bolded, you might notice that i've asked you to " help me understand".. does that sound like i'm trying to teach you something? Can we be honest please? I well know that if I push this and show you exactly what is going here, you will walk away. And this dynamic will repeat itself again in another few months time.
We are in this place where you want acknowledgement from me, that your presentation of the realisation that experiencing directly without the overlay of thought, is a freer experience, than being laden down by attention absorbed by an inner mindscape.
Your instructions to me, that I'm trying to hard, really ought to be noticed in yourself. Telling me to relax a bit, again really ought to be something you could consider, then the relaxed tone of your words could be felt.
Then telling me that I'm not seeing clearly, as any first year, psychology student will happily inform you is not conducive to getting someone to see what you're saying.
Everyone here is continuously helping you to understand. It really is time for you to acknowledge that.
Unfortunately, you haven't understood the discussion.. you're only hearing your emotions telling you what to do..
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2015 16:35:13 GMT -5
Realization applies to more than Self realization. Nothing is actually hidden from what you are, because you are everything. Mind is a tool. You are not mind, and you are not bound by it's limitations. Those limitations are the things you think you know. Beyond that is a different kind of knowing. enigma, but the medium of realization is not reliable. If you've realized that nature is "very present, moving from moment to moment in closed, self supporting circles that ultimately go nowhere. Nature is not trying to get somewhere". That's not ultimately true. I can say what is not true. It's not true that time is an actuality, so nature is 'very present'. It's not true that anything is separate from anything, so everything is inherently self supporting as a singular movement. It's not true that essence is a thinking, planning being, so essence is not trying to get somewhere. It's not true that something is happening outside of you that cannot be understood. Realization does not need to take you outside of yourself. There is nothing outside of you, and nothing inside. I can get even more brown bearish than that if you insist.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 16:53:01 GMT -5
enigma, but the medium of realization is not reliable. If you've realized that nature is "very present, moving from moment to moment in closed, self supporting circles that ultimately go nowhere. Nature is not trying to get somewhere". That's not ultimately true. I can say what is not true. It's not true that time is an actuality, so nature is 'very present'. It's not true that anything is separate from anything, so everything is inherently self supporting as a singular movement. It's not true that essence is a thinking, planning being, so essence is not trying to get somewhere. It's not true that something is happening outside of you that cannot be understood. Realization does not need to take you outside of yourself. There is nothing outside of you, and nothing inside. I can get even more brown bearish than that if you insist. enigma, thank you for your response, much love.
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2015 16:59:22 GMT -5
The conversation was about how it's only man that has agendas that go against his own nature, and the sig about man 'pulling himself from the ground of his being with each step' was referenced because it means the same thing. The sky and sea and canvass and ground are more symbols of that 'ground of being' than they are meteorological or marine data references. Actuality and authenticity don't suffer the perils of illusions, there's no inconsistency in the details.. Like: No inconsistency in the details? You really think the matters we're discussing can be related in technical precision? In fact, words fail right from the start. Did you ever come across such an idea in your intense study of nonduality?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 17:07:10 GMT -5
Can we be honest please? I well know that if I push this and show you exactly what is going here, you will walk away. And this dynamic will repeat itself again in another few months time.
We are in this place where you want acknowledgement from me, that your presentation of the realisation that experiencing directly without the overlay of thought, is a freer experience, than being laden down by attention absorbed by an inner mindscape.
Your instructions to me, that I'm trying to hard, really ought to be noticed in yourself. Telling me to relax a bit, again really ought to be something you could consider, then the relaxed tone of your words could be felt.
Then telling me that I'm not seeing clearly, as any first year, psychology student will happily inform you is not conducive to getting someone to see what you're saying.
Everyone here is continuously helping you to understand. It really is time for you to acknowledge that.
Unfortunately, you haven't understood the discussion.. you're only hearing your emotions telling you what to do.. Unfortunate for who?
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 19:28:40 GMT -5
Actuality and authenticity don't suffer the perils of illusions, there's no inconsistency in the details.. Like: No inconsistency in the details? You really think the matters we're discussing can be related in technical precision? In fact, words fail right from the start. Did you ever come across such an idea in your intense study of nonduality? What i come across is people contradicting themselves, then trying to dodge that actuality by blaming the words.. that's the pattern nondualists use.. Yes, in matters of the experiencer's fundamental understanding of existence, precision matters.. you are precise in the following quote, making certain that your beliefs are understood, even threatening to go all Brown Bearish on someone..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 19:32:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately, you haven't understood the discussion.. you're only hearing your emotions telling you what to do.. Unfortunate for who? Unfortunate for everyone, you keep pursuing a belief that only exists in your desire to make 'Tzu' wrong..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 19:42:45 GMT -5
Unfortunate for everyone, you keep pursuing a belief that only exists in your desire to make 'Tzu' wrong.. Every One.. my, my. Is what you're saying original?
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2015 20:01:49 GMT -5
No inconsistency in the details? You really think the matters we're discussing can be related in technical precision? In fact, words fail right from the start. Did you ever come across such an idea in your intense study of nonduality? What i come across is people contradicting themselves, then trying to dodge that actuality by blaming the words.. that's the pattern nondualists use.. Yes, in matters of the experiencer's fundamental understanding of existence, precision matters.. you are precise in the following quote, making certain that your beliefs are understood, even threatening to go all Brown Bearish on someone.. The reason it sounds that way to you is because nonduality refers to 'something' beyond the conceptual about which nothing at all can be said that is really accurate, and you don't understand this. The brown bearishness is the most accurate way to talk about nonduality, but as you know there's an almost visceral resistance to the language, so much so that the less mature teachers even find themselves resisting it.
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Post by enigma on Jan 25, 2015 20:07:08 GMT -5
Unfortunate for everyone, you keep pursuing a belief that only exists in your desire to make 'Tzu' wrong.. Every One.. my, my. Is what you're saying original? Most of that 'everyone' (Tzu being the obvious exception) understands what he's saying already, or at least has heard it hundreds of times from many of the same members he struggles with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 20:16:06 GMT -5
Every One.. my, my. Is what you're saying original? Most of that 'everyone' (Tzu being the obvious exception) understands what he's saying already, or at least has heard it hundreds of times from many of the same members he struggles with. I'm wondering if the handmade wrapping paper that he puts around it, is what makes him think that it's unique.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 25, 2015 21:04:50 GMT -5
Well, I hope that Source understood my post better than you did. My post had nothing to do with walking off a cliff. It dealt with how ideas blind us to the obviousness of "what is." OK, I was placing emphasis on the unalterableness of what is, from your standpoint. As a contractor, your job is to fix problems. A sub comes to you, such & such is not going to work. We can do this, we can do that, what do you want to do? You can say, do this, or you can ask, what would you do, or if you trust your sub, you just say, you do what you think is best. But a great contractor lines up all the ducks and the job flows and things get dome when they need to get done. You're like a conductor. One big hitch and then you have to make half a dozen calls, don't come tomorrow, come in two days, and then the next call, another sub, don't come in two days, plan to come in three days. I mostly worked for one contractor for over 25 years. I liked him but he had a superintendent that was an arrogant nightmare. He lied to subs to try to get his ducks lined up. And he would hang up the phone and say to me, I told him I needed him in three days because I really need him in 5 days, but if told him 5 days he would be here in 5 days. And then later I would talk to that very sub, and he would say, yea, I know Mack's game....I play the game. I think you are probably a great contractor, a "Chuang Tzu" Taoist contractor, like the butcher who hadn't sharpened his knife in fifteen years because he cut in the 'empty' places. But why? Certainly you plan ahead. You don't wait until the day you need a sub and call him up, and say, I have an emergency, can you please come today at 2:30? (Although that does sometimes happen through unforeseen circumstances). Now, I know you'll say that planning ahead is doing what needs to be done now. You fix problems by preventing them from happening through good planning. Now, I'm sure you leave some built-in wriggle-room in planning for unforeseen stuff that happens. I'm saying that I don't think your example of walking off a cliff was a very good example. When things happen, they happen in the only way they can happen. But Don Juan told Carlos that sometimes we do have a chance, but only a cubic centimeter of chance to make or alter a decision, but after that cubic centimeter, things happen in the only way they can happen. I don't think life is like a chain of dominos where the first one unalterably knocks down the thousandth one. You couldn't be a contractor without planning (for the future) and making decisions concerning unexpected problems (the carpenter doesn't have the lumber he needs because he unexpectedly ran out yesterday, you ordered, but the delivery truck broke down, etc., etc., etc...). Life unfolds and pushes us in the flow, but I think sometimes we have to push back, and can. When we're in L's double bind, we have to choose, even if it is just flipping a coin. And I'm saying one hand washes the other, both hemisphere of the brain are necessary in life. Okay, you're not following me. I'm saying that what's happening NOW is what's happening. Only Now. Not five minutes from now. NOW. This has nothing to do with any hypothetical futures. My realization was that fantasizing about the future ignores the present reality. My recurrent fantasy was that I "ought" to be off meditating and getting enlightened rather than pouring concrete (or doing whatever construction work I was actually doing). What I saw that day was that the thought of "going off to a mountaintop and getting enlightened" was a fantasy that psychologically separated me from what was actually happening. On that day I asked myself a simple question, "What must I be doing this moment?" The answer was amazingly obvious. I HAD to be pouring concrete. There was no doubt about it, and it was non-conceptually unquestionable. For someone else it might have been some other activity, but on that day it was pouring concrete in my case. It became obvious that reality is ALWAYS manifesting however it is manifesting in the present moment, no matter what we might think about it or fantasize about it. FWIW, I did not give an example of walking off a cliff. That was Source. I simply explained that whatever happens is whatever happens regardless of what people think about it. You may think that you have choices about what you do, and from the standpoint of everyday language, I have no problem with describing things that way. But if you will look at what is actually happening, moment by moment, with a totally still mind, you will see that who you THINK you are is NOT who you are, and who you THINK you are is not controlling anything. Who you THINK you are is imaginary, but what's happening is NOT imaginary. It is what it is. I wasn't suggesting that Source walk off a cliff or not look where he's walking. I was saying that he can't go wrong because the cosmos does not go wrong. It does what it does. You might not like it, but that will be a thought. You might fantasize all kinds of alternative scenarios, but whatever is happening is what is happening. If Source took a path that led him to fall over a cliff, that would be the reality. It wouldn't be wrong or right; it would be the reality. E's point, that I was agreeing with, is that you can't make a wrong decision except in your imagination. I hope these words make the point more clearly. Cheers.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 21:30:10 GMT -5
Unfortunate for everyone, you keep pursuing a belief that only exists in your desire to make 'Tzu' wrong.. Every One.. my, my. Is what you're saying original? I don't know if it's original or not..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 21:46:53 GMT -5
What i come across is people contradicting themselves, then trying to dodge that actuality by blaming the words.. that's the pattern nondualists use.. Yes, in matters of the experiencer's fundamental understanding of existence, precision matters.. you are precise in the following quote, making certain that your beliefs are understood, even threatening to go all Brown Bearish on someone.. The reason it sounds that way to you is because nonduality refers to 'something' beyond the conceptual about which nothing at all can be said that is really accurate, and you don't understand this. The brown bearishness is the most accurate way to talk about nonduality, but as you know there's an almost visceral resistance to the language, so much so that the less mature teachers even find themselves resisting it. If you believe that "brown bearishness is the most accurate way to talk about nonduality", you don't understand nonduality, you've simply resonated with a style that suits your temperament.. i do understand non-duality, i just didn't stuck there.. when you can let your attachment to 'nonduality' go, you will realize what an anchor it was..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 25, 2015 22:11:37 GMT -5
OK, I was placing emphasis on the unalterableness of what is, from your standpoint. As a contractor, your job is to fix problems. A sub comes to you, such & such is not going to work. We can do this, we can do that, what do you want to do? You can say, do this, or you can ask, what would you do, or if you trust your sub, you just say, you do what you think is best. But a great contractor lines up all the ducks and the job flows and things get dome when they need to get done. You're like a conductor. One big hitch and then you have to make half a dozen calls, don't come tomorrow, come in two days, and then the next call, another sub, don't come in two days, plan to come in three days. I mostly worked for one contractor for over 25 years. I liked him but he had a superintendent that was an arrogant nightmare. He lied to subs to try to get his ducks lined up. And he would hang up the phone and say to me, I told him I needed him in three days because I really need him in 5 days, but if told him 5 days he would be here in 5 days. And then later I would talk to that very sub, and he would say, yea, I know Mack's game....I play the game. I think you are probably a great contractor, a "Chuang Tzu" Taoist contractor, like the butcher who hadn't sharpened his knife in fifteen years because he cut in the 'empty' places. But why? Certainly you plan ahead. You don't wait until the day you need a sub and call him up, and say, I have an emergency, can you please come today at 2:30? (Although that does sometimes happen through unforeseen circumstances). Now, I know you'll say that planning ahead is doing what needs to be done now. You fix problems by preventing them from happening through good planning. Now, I'm sure you leave some built-in wriggle-room in planning for unforeseen stuff that happens. I'm saying that I don't think your example of walking off a cliff was a very good example. When things happen, they happen in the only way they can happen. But Don Juan told Carlos that sometimes we do have a chance, but only a cubic centimeter of chance to make or alter a decision, but after that cubic centimeter, things happen in the only way they can happen. I don't think life is like a chain of dominos where the first one unalterably knocks down the thousandth one. You couldn't be a contractor without planning (for the future) and making decisions concerning unexpected problems (the carpenter doesn't have the lumber he needs because he unexpectedly ran out yesterday, you ordered, but the delivery truck broke down, etc., etc., etc...). Life unfolds and pushes us in the flow, but I think sometimes we have to push back, and can. When we're in L's double bind, we have to choose, even if it is just flipping a coin. And I'm saying one hand washes the other, both hemisphere of the brain are necessary in life. Okay, you're not following me. I'm saying that what's happening NOW is what's happening. Only Now. Not five minutes from now. NOW. This has nothing to do with any hypothetical futures. My realization was that fantasizing about the future often ignores the present reality. My recurrent fantasy was that I "ought" to be off meditating and getting enlightened rather than pouring concrete (or doing whatever construction work I was actually doing). What I saw that day was that the thought of "going off to a mountaintop and getting enlightened" was a fantasy that psychologically separated me from what was actually happening. On that day I asked myself a simple question, "What must I be doing this moment?" The answer was amazingly obvious. I HAD to be pouring concrete. There was no doubt about it, and it was non-conceptually unquestionable. For someone else it might have been some other activity, but on that day it was pouring concrete in my case. It became obvious that reality is ALWAYS manifesting however it is manifesting in the present moment, no matter what we might think about it or fantasize about it.
FWIW, I did not give an example of walking off a cliff. That was Source. I simply explained that whatever happens is whatever happens regardless of what people think about it. You may think that you have choices about what you do, and from the standpoint of everyday language, I have no problem with describing things that way. But if you will look at what is actually happening, moment by moment, with a totally still mind, you will see that who you THINK you are is NOT who you are, and who you THINK you are is not controlling anything. Who you THINK you are is imaginary, but what's happening is NOT imaginary. It is what it is. I wasn't suggesting that Source walk off a cliff or not look where he's walking. I was saying that he can't go wrong because the cosmos does not go wrong. It does what it does. You might not like it, but that will be a thought. You might fantasize all kinds of alternative scenarios, but whatever is happening is what is happening. If Source took a path that led him to fall over a cliff, that would be the reality. It wouldn't be wrong or right; it would be the reality. E's point, that I was agreeing with, is that you can't make a wrong decision except in your imagination. I hope these words make the point more clearly. Cheers. Hi ZD: I took the liberty of highlighting the portion that resonates with my understanding.. and i would like to explain my understanding of volition/choice.. 'now', is the sum of the choices made prior to the choosing happening 'now', which creates the new 'now'.. if the experiencer thinks that who they 'think' they are is not who they are, is there a disturbance in the Force?
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