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Post by earnest on Jan 15, 2015 18:09:52 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… )
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Post by silver on Jan 15, 2015 19:10:03 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) I like the way you write...it'd be nice to hear from you more often. It sounds like you are between intermediate and expert at this stuff. Just joking a little bit...seems to be my way (of getting into trouble sometimes).
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Post by enigma on Jan 15, 2015 19:44:24 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) Thanks for your input. Maybe together we can figure out a way to break the model/theory trend.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2015 23:31:09 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look.
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Post by earnest on Jan 16, 2015 1:14:52 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look. Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 1:22:01 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look. Only if you assume your model is right. If it's not, one could wander lost in the forest of models their whole life.
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 1:24:07 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look. Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo.An oldie but goody.
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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2015 7:26:45 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) Those questions ZD responded to are the unconscious moment-to-moment experience of lots of people who've never had a single clear moment of consciously experiencing directly what is in front of them. For some of us with naturally active minds, that first clear moment can spark a period of hyperminding about what that moment was all about. This is a search for conceptual meaning. If that search is done earnestly and honestly, it can be found that there is no such conceptual meaning, but that every moment and every sensation is sacred.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 16, 2015 8:03:32 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) This is excellent! There are no longer any conscious expectations, desires, or questions, and one simply deals with what is happening in the present moment and watches. This is all one can do until a particular structure of thought (self-referentiality) collapses. There is stuff happening Un-consciously, but it need not be a subject of thought. Stay present and watch. Whenever it is realized that conceptual reflectivity (about existential issues) is occurring, simply shift attention back to what is happening--to direct sensory perception. This body/mind got to exactly the same point. It realized that nothing more could be done, so it relaxed and took the attitude of, "Permanent unity-consciousness will occur in this lifetime or in another lifetime, and it no longer matters how long it takes; whatever is happening NOW is going to be the only focus of attention." The body/mind still went on periodic silent ATA-MT hikes and retreats (during which attentiveness to "what is" becomes intensified and prolonged), and one day several months later a realization occurred that ended the search for truth and resulted in freedom. Just watch, until the imaginary watcher vanishes and the REAL watcher is all that remains.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2015 9:55:38 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look. Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. Hey earnest...........so there is nobody who is lost in WIBIGO? I don't describe experience (events rarely), so I guess I'm done on this thread. Of course I disagree with most of the others here who believe that any kind of orientation in the forest of WIBIGO is not necessary. I say a compass is needed. I still say if one doesn't know where, how and why to look, one is lost. A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 10:37:45 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO
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Post by silver on Jan 16, 2015 12:24:25 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO well then...so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 16, 2015 12:38:50 GMT -5
Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. Hey earnest...........so there in nobody who is lost in WIBIGO? I don't describe experience (events rarely), so I guess I'm done on this thread. Of course I disagree with most of the others here who believe that any kind of orientation in the forest of WIBIGO is not necessary. I say a compass is needed. I still say if one doesn't know where, how and why to look, one is lost. A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski Ironically, lost is where peeps need to be--lost in a state of not-knowing. The problem is that peeps THINK that they know where they are, and THINK that they are observers separate from what is observed. These ideas prevent them from simply looking at "what is" non-conceptually. By looking non-conceptually it is possible to discover what remains when self-referential thoughts are seen through/collapse/vanish. The pointer is not complex. Nothing could be simpler. Look at "what is" non-conceptually, and give up wanting anything but the truth. The truth is impersonal, and only the truth can find Itself. No person can find the truth. The Jack Nicholson quote comes to mind, "The truth? You can't handle the truth!" Ha ha. Only the truth can handle the truth. When the truth becomes obvious, "you" won't be there. To answer SDP's questions: 1. Where to look? Answer: Right in front of your face, always. 2. How to look? Answer: Non-conceptually. 3. Why to look? Answer: In order to find the truth Why look non-conceptually? Answer: Because the looker is usually so mesmerized by thoughts that what's always here and now gets overlooked and remains unseen.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 13:14:30 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO well then...so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess. what does 'automagically creating" mean? I can ignore stuff.. or lie about it... or I can treat it like a life koan until it washes away...
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Post by silver on Jan 16, 2015 13:20:58 GMT -5
well then...so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess. what does 'automagically creating" mean? I can ignore stuff.. or lie about it... or I can treat it like a life koan until it washes away... I only took what you said the way I did because you seemed to be agreeing with earnest about getting physically ill/ nauseous and bored over stuff -- although I realize now it could be just you eggsagerating for effect.
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