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Suicide.
Jul 9, 2014 10:59:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 10:59:59 GMT -5
The way I understand Camus' use of "imagine" and "happy" is different. My understanding is that his underscoring of the Sisyphus myth was to highlight the question of suicide. Is it better to live, with all of it's slings and arrows and boulders, or to die? Sisyphus provides an example of someone who chose the former. It is a fundamental question and is first cousins, in my opinion, to Do you exist? and Who/what am I? Alternatively, who/what suffers? The polarity is questioned. Why would someone choose to live under such horrible circumstances? Imagining Sisyphus happy is a way of saying that he walked off the battlefield. The battlefield of rolling the boulder up the hill ceaselessly, forever, is not where he is. It is happening but he is simply happy in being. Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. I think he just meant finding happiness in the futility. But I could be wrong.
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Post by charliegee on Jul 9, 2014 11:14:11 GMT -5
thanks Alfio .. we gotta spread those eggs around ..
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Post by enigma on Jul 9, 2014 11:33:34 GMT -5
Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. I think he just meant finding happiness in the futility. But I could be wrong. Probly, but what is found is not happiness, but rather Peace.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 9, 2014 11:59:46 GMT -5
The way I understand Camus' use of "imagine" and "happy" is different. My understanding is that his underscoring of the Sisyphus myth was to highlight the question of suicide. Is it better to live, with all of it's slings and arrows and boulders, or to die? Sisyphus provides an example of someone who chose the former. It is a fundamental question and is first cousins, in my opinion, to Do you exist? and Who/what am I? Alternatively, who/what suffers? The polarity is questioned. Why would someone choose to live under such horrible circumstances? Imagining Sisyphus happy is a way of saying that he walked off the battlefield. The battlefield of rolling the boulder up the hill ceaselessly, forever, is not where he is. It is happening but he is simply happy in being. Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....?
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Post by runstill on Jul 9, 2014 12:57:18 GMT -5
Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....?Now there's a question, is that even possible , maybe it's more like a dropping of attention to 'I' which 'I' can't notice because it's the one giving attention to it's self....?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 13:17:42 GMT -5
Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? One issue with that schema, though, is that ceasing to push the rock up the hill will instantly result in bodily death not just death of the seeker.
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Post by enigma on Jul 9, 2014 19:19:49 GMT -5
Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? The question seems to relate to Camus' conclusion about the myth in his philosophical essay about it. From Wikki: The tragedy occurs when man becomes conscious of the futility of his condition, which I have no problem with. He also claims that to realize the absurdity and hopelessness of the situation leads to contentedness and happiness, which is what he means when he says "One must imagine Sisyphus [to be] happy". The realization of the absurd does not necessarily lead to acceptance of the absurd, which is what he implies. Even so, he declares "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn" which seems to imply something other than acceptance is happening in his scenario. Given that acceptance happens anyway, one could say that acceptance leads to Peace, but not to happiness as generally understood in a dualistic context with unhappiness. Hencely, one really has no basis for imagining Sisyphus as happy, except perhaps to curse himself with the same hope that Camus implies is one of the obstacles to freedom in the myth.
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Post by enigma on Jul 9, 2014 19:39:47 GMT -5
A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? One issue with that schema, though, is that ceasing to push the rock up the hill will instantly result in bodily death not just death of the seeker. So if one is thusly motivated, the source of suffering is really the attachment to life, and given that attachment, there is only conditional acceptance possible. To accept the situation as it is as long as it doesn't lead to death, is not freedom. In that instance, death is freedom.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 9, 2014 22:08:02 GMT -5
A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....?Now there's a question, is that even possible , maybe it's more like a dropping of attention to 'I' which 'I' can't notice because it's the one giving attention to it's self....? What do you mean by this? Like hyper-self-consciousness?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 9, 2014 22:09:57 GMT -5
A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? One issue with that schema, though, is that ceasing to push the rock up the hill will instantly result in bodily death not just death of the seeker. He he, are you sure that would happen?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 9, 2014 23:57:31 GMT -5
A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? The question seems to relate to Camus' conclusion about the myth in his philosophical essay about it. From Wikki: The tragedy occurs when man becomes conscious of the futility of his condition, which I have no problem with. He also claims that to realize the absurdity and hopelessness of the situation leads to contentedness and happiness, which is what he means when he says "One must imagine Sisyphus [to be] happy". The realization of the absurd does not necessarily lead to acceptance of the absurd, which is what he implies. Even so, he declares "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn" which seems to imply something other than acceptance is happening in his scenario. Given that acceptance happens anyway, one could say that acceptance leads to Peace, but not to happiness as generally understood in a dualistic context with unhappiness. Hencely, one really has no basis for imagining Sisyphus as happy, except perhaps to curse himself with the same hope that Camus implies is one of the obstacles to freedom in the myth. I have read Camus in spurts, but do not know of the depth of his realization. For the most part, it seems to me that he and his ilk never really went all the way. There always seemed to be lingering attachments to "this world", as if being caught in the trap of trying to reconcile Truth realization with the PPOV. Maybe that's what he meant by the necessity to "imagine Sis happy". Becoming conscious of the futility of one's condition is just the start of the death spiral, and the absurdity and hopelessness does indeed point to the slippery slope the mind finds itself on, especially if trying to push rocks up hills! hehe I am not really sure what he meant by "acceptance", but it appears to still be on the slippery slope.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 2:32:09 GMT -5
thanks Alfio .. we gotta spread those eggs around .. true brother;that certainly is the case. Its the diversified organism which survives. Kookaburra surround me now laughing as I text this message, having just returned from the Aborigine Cultural Center where I am weaving-in gradually as supporter to their cause. They want to keep their Culture alive here in Freo. One aspect that I find interesting is that some Aborigine captives who are placed in jail mysteriously die soon after being jailed. Like, "Life is OVER! I will leave now"I have done something similar in the face of an accident, but never died at will.
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Post by vacant on Jul 10, 2014 18:22:56 GMT -5
The question seems to relate to Camus' conclusion about the myth in his philosophical essay about it. From Wikki: The tragedy occurs when man becomes conscious of the futility of his condition, which I have no problem with. He also claims that to realize the absurdity and hopelessness of the situation leads to contentedness and happiness, which is what he means when he says "One must imagine Sisyphus [to be] happy". The realization of the absurd does not necessarily lead to acceptance of the absurd, which is what he implies. Even so, he declares "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn" which seems to imply something other than acceptance is happening in his scenario. Given that acceptance happens anyway, one could say that acceptance leads to Peace, but not to happiness as generally understood in a dualistic context with unhappiness. Hencely, one really has no basis for imagining Sisyphus as happy, except perhaps to curse himself with the same hope that Camus implies is one of the obstacles to freedom in the myth. I have read Camus in spurts, but do not know of the depth of his realization. For the most part, it seems to me that he and his ilk never really went all the way. There always seemed to be lingering attachments to "this world", as if being caught in the trap of trying to reconcile Truth realization with the PPOV. Maybe that's what he meant by the necessity to "imagine Sis happy". Becoming conscious of the futility of one's condition is just the start of the death spiral, and the absurdity and hopelessness does indeed point to the slippery slope the mind finds itself on, especially if trying to push rocks up hills! hehe I am not really sure what he meant by "acceptance", but it appears to still be on the slippery slope. I like your perspective on the Sis, SN. Camus was part of a school where bummed-out = fashionable, probably born out of disillusioned = more aware (read more cool) than up and excited as was the trend in post WW2 western society, especially as the american dream was percieved in Europe among trendy intellectual rebels. No biggy and well on that slippery slope. Acceptance my @ss.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 11, 2014 16:17:25 GMT -5
I have read Camus in spurts, but do not know of the depth of his realization. For the most part, it seems to me that he and his ilk never really went all the way. There always seemed to be lingering attachments to "this world", as if being caught in the trap of trying to reconcile Truth realization with the PPOV. Maybe that's what he meant by the necessity to "imagine Sis happy". Becoming conscious of the futility of one's condition is just the start of the death spiral, and the absurdity and hopelessness does indeed point to the slippery slope the mind finds itself on, especially if trying to push rocks up hills! hehe I am not really sure what he meant by "acceptance", but it appears to still be on the slippery slope. I like your perspective on the Sis, SN. Camus was part of a school where bummed-out = fashionable, probably born out of disillusioned = more aware (read more cool) than up and excited as was the trend in post WW2 western society, especially as the american dream was percieved in Europe among trendy intellectual rebels. No biggy and well on that slippery slope. Acceptance my @ss. Hi Vacant! It's been a while since I've seen you pop up while I'm on. Yeah, your synopsis sounds about right with respect to my general understanding of what they were on about. It's interesting to read such writers as their discussions have a familiar feel to them, but then when seen in a larger picture, it's possible to see they are describing (and identifying with) the mind's limitations. I remember thinking about some of the "schools'" ideas when reading Chogyam's classic "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism".
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 11, 2014 16:22:47 GMT -5
One issue with that schema, though, is that ceasing to push the rock up the hill will instantly result in bodily death not just death of the seeker. So if one is thusly motivated, the source of suffering is really the attachment to life, and given that attachment, there is only conditional acceptance possible. To accept the situation as it is as long as it doesn't lead to death, is not freedom. In that instance, death is freedom.
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