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Post by zendancer on Jul 11, 2014 20:35:32 GMT -5
All I can say, regarding Camus and his friends is, "ha ha ha ha ha!" I don't think they had a f**ing clue, but I've had two glasses of wine tonight, and my viewpoint is somewhat skewed. AAR, who cares? Ha ha! I just know that I don't see no rock that needs pushing anywhere (much less uphill)! All I see is a full moon coming over the hills, so Carol and I are going out on the porch to enjoy the view.
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Post by enigma on Jul 11, 2014 20:56:48 GMT -5
All I can say, regarding Camus and his friends is, "ha ha ha ha ha!" I don't think they had a f**ing clue, but I've had two glasses of wine tonight, and my viewpoint is somewhat skewed. AAR, who cares? Ha ha! I just know that I don't see no rock that needs pushing anywhere (much less uphill)! All I see is a full moon coming over the hills, so Carol and I are going out on the porch to enjoy the view. **Rolls boulder up ZD's porch steps and runs off into woods**
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 6:34:55 GMT -5
Sisyphus, completely exhausted stands aside, sweat pouring scrapes and bruises burning the low thudding of the ever-immense boulder descending and begins the descent again noticing the cool air on his brow "We must imagine Sisyphus happy" -Albert Camus Sisyphus is about the existential question of purpose and meaning of life, isn't it?
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 6:42:39 GMT -5
I agree with Top in that a compensating attitude (imagining happiness to counter unhappiness) doesn't work. As long as there is engagement with one of the polarities, there is involvement with both. Strangely, the goal is not to be happy in the usual sense, but to 'not mind'. (walking off the battlefield) The way I understand Camus' use of "imagine" and "happy" is different. My understanding is that his underscoring of the Sisyphus myth was to highlight the question of suicide. Is it better to live, with all of it's slings and arrows and boulders, or to die? Sisyphus provides an example of someone who chose the former. It is a fundamental question and is first cousins, in my opinion, to Do you exist? and Who/what am I? Alternatively, who/what suffers? The polarity is questioned. Why would someone choose to live under such horrible circumstances? Imagining Sisyphus happy is a way of saying that he walked off the battlefield. The battlefield of rolling the boulder up the hill ceaselessly, forever, is not where he is. It is happening but he is simply happy in being. It's actually one of those misconceived questions.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 6:46:46 GMT -5
Okay. I really have no idea what Camus may have meant by his comment. A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? Holy Sigmund!
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 6:50:17 GMT -5
A perspective on the Sisyphian... rock = personal sense of self uphill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic happiness) downhill = one end of the stick/continuum (i.e., of dualistic bummerhood) pushing rock uphill = effort, seeking eternal happiness in so many ways (i.e., ignorance) rolling downhill = sh!t happening as a life event, but misunderstood because PPOV delusion = "I" have to keep efforting/seeking/rolling/getting somewhere, pretending that all this is happening "to a me" (drama) realization = .... (Sisyphus, momentarily aware, is not actually the rock, ...Peace) Psychological suicide through monomaniacal seeking, perhaps....? The question seems to relate to Camus' conclusion about the myth in his philosophical essay about it. From Wikki: The tragedy occurs when man becomes conscious of the futility of his condition, which I have no problem with. He also claims that to realize the absurdity and hopelessness of the situation leads to contentedness and happiness, which is what he means when he says "One must imagine Sisyphus [to be] happy". The realization of the absurd does not necessarily lead to acceptance of the absurd, which is what he implies. Even so, he declares "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn" which seems to imply something other than acceptance is happening in his scenario. Given that acceptance happens anyway, one could say that acceptance leads to Peace, but not to happiness as generally understood in a dualistic context with unhappiness. Hencely, one really has no basis for imagining Sisyphus as happy, except perhaps to curse himself with the same hope that Camus implies is one of the obstacles to freedom in the myth. The Sisyphus situation is only problematic/tragic for folks who live in their head, who need a purpose and meaning.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 7:00:38 GMT -5
I have read Camus in spurts, but do not know of the depth of his realization. For the most part, it seems to me that he and his ilk never really went all the way. There always seemed to be lingering attachments to "this world", as if being caught in the trap of trying to reconcile Truth realization with the PPOV. Maybe that's what he meant by the necessity to "imagine Sis happy". Becoming conscious of the futility of one's condition is just the start of the death spiral, and the absurdity and hopelessness does indeed point to the slippery slope the mind finds itself on, especially if trying to push rocks up hills! hehe I am not really sure what he meant by "acceptance", but it appears to still be on the slippery slope. I like your perspective on the Sis, SN. Camus was part of a school where bummed-out = fashionable, probably born out of disillusioned = more aware (read more cool) than up and excited as was the trend in post WW2 western society, especially as the american dream was percieved in Europe among trendy intellectual rebels. No biggy and well on that slippery slope. Acceptance my @ss. Hehe, so much about the philosopher's guide to existential questions.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 12, 2014 7:03:04 GMT -5
All I can say, regarding Camus and his friends is, "ha ha ha ha ha!" I don't think they had a f**ing clue, but I've had two glasses of wine tonight, and my viewpoint is somewhat skewed. AAR, who cares? Ha ha! I just know that I don't see no rock that needs pushing anywhere (much less uphill)! All I see is a full moon coming over the hills, so Carol and I are going out on the porch to enjoy the view. Bingo.
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Post by laughter on Jul 12, 2014 16:31:05 GMT -5
"We must imagine Sisyphus happy" -Albert Camus Sisyphus is about the existential question of purpose and meaning of life, isn't it? If a peep takes themselves as actually separate then they're bound to take entropy personally every once and awhile.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 17:37:18 GMT -5
Sisyphus is about the existential question of purpose and meaning of life, isn't it? If a peep takes themselves as actually separate then they're bound to take entropy personally every once and awhile. my unofficial guess says 99.99% of worldwide peeps take themselves as actually separate; toiling away with their personal boulders....... its the norm, ain't it dude? I wonder where the impetus to challenge that thinking comes from? or the perseverance to see it through.........
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Post by laughter on Jul 12, 2014 19:41:57 GMT -5
If a peep takes themselves as actually separate then they're bound to take entropy personally every once and awhile. my unofficial guess says 99.99% of worldwide peeps take themselves as actually separate; toiling away with their personal boulders....... its the norm, ain't it dude? I wonder where the impetus to challenge that thinking comes from? or the perseverance to see it through......... Well yeah that's the commonly accepted meme anyway: most peeps think they're separate. I don't poll the peeps I come into contact with about it and never really had an interest as to what they'd say if I did until I got woo-woo'd by Tolle. My guess is that impetus is individualized. For me, I was just curious .. with no religious indoctrination I put faith in science, and that points one inevitably to the "interconnected whole". It's a common theme among the educated -- "everything is one". From what I've seen, among the less educated there's religion and superstition that manifests as a sneaking suspicion that there's something more to the world that meets the eye. But until one takes a look directly and nonconceptually, it's still them and the boulder, no matter what conceptual framework of oneness they have .. or don't have.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 3:13:08 GMT -5
If a peep takes themselves as actually separate then they're bound to take entropy personally every once and awhile. my unofficial guess says 99.99% of worldwide peeps take themselves as actually separate; toiling away with their personal boulders....... its the norm, ain't it dude? I wonder where the impetus to challenge that thinking comes from? or the perseverance to see it through......... My official guess says that if you lived in another country that percentage would go down.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 7:31:18 GMT -5
my unofficial guess says 99.99% of worldwide peeps take themselves as actually separate; toiling away with their personal boulders....... its the norm, ain't it dude? I wonder where the impetus to challenge that thinking comes from? or the perseverance to see it through......... Well yeah that's the commonly accepted meme anyway: most peeps think they're separate. I don't poll the peeps I come into contact with about it and never really had an interest as to what they'd say if I did until I got woo-woo'd by Tolle. My guess is that impetus is individualized. For me, I was just curious .. with no religious indoctrination I put faith in science, and that points one inevitably to the "interconnected whole". It's a common theme among the educated -- "everything is one". From what I've seen, among the less educated there's religion and superstition that manifests as a sneaking suspicion that there's something more to the world that meets the eye. But until one takes a look directly and nonconceptually, it's still them and the boulder, no matter what conceptual framework of oneness they have .. or don't have. yeah, science is cool, and if that Mitochondrial Eve hypothesis is correct ... then we're distant cousins.
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Post by laughter on Jul 13, 2014 15:09:56 GMT -5
Well yeah that's the commonly accepted meme anyway: most peeps think they're separate. I don't poll the peeps I come into contact with about it and never really had an interest as to what they'd say if I did until I got woo-woo'd by Tolle. My guess is that impetus is individualized. For me, I was just curious .. with no religious indoctrination I put faith in science, and that points one inevitably to the "interconnected whole". It's a common theme among the educated -- "everything is one". From what I've seen, among the less educated there's religion and superstition that manifests as a sneaking suspicion that there's something more to the world that meets the eye. But until one takes a look directly and nonconceptually, it's still them and the boulder, no matter what conceptual framework of oneness they have .. or don't have. yeah, science is cool, and if that Mitochondrial Eve hypothesis is correct ... then we're distant cousins. .. not ta' mention Y-Chromosome Adam either! So I guess this means I'll see ya' the fourth Thursday in Nov for some frogbunny tomatoes...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 9:28:55 GMT -5
One issue with that schema, though, is that ceasing to push the rock up the hill will instantly result in bodily death not just death of the seeker. He he, are you sure that would happen? Well I think that was the scenario, if I'm not mistaken. Basically you can push this boulder up the hill ad infinitum or die.
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