fear
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Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Sept 18, 2009 13:55:19 GMT -5
Only through suffering can one begin the search within. Not that we should seek suffering but when it happens, we should be aware of it and and work towards fully accepting it. Only though full acceptance does the suffering disappear and whatever has opened up is revealed.
In my case it was suffering that started me out on this path. Had I not been suffering at the time, I would never have taken the time to look. It was suffering that caused me to think that "there must be more to life than this".
When everything is going well, the ego is just being strengthened. When you feel pleasure, we are just becoming more attached to attachment.
Suffering makes the ego uncomfortable, all of a sudden we are forced to question everything because we are no longer having fun and we want a way out of this misery.
It's also very important not to identify with suffering. Don't make it you. E.g someone that's suffering from depression says "I am depressed", will never escape depression. Rather it should be viewed as, depression is there right now. Allow for depression to not be there tomorrow. Just fully accept it in that moment but don't invite it into the next moment because belief is a stong thing. Ever notice some people that are miserable all the time even when there's nothing to be miserable about. That's because they've identified with their misery and didn't allow the next moment to be un-miserable. So just a word of caution in case someone misunderstands this post.
Suffering is valuable not only for the beginning of the search but all throughout. When you've hit a wall and wonder why you can't go further a little suffering will point out the way. I recently was a little heartbroken over a girl and couldn't believe it. I thought I had all that love stuff all figured out and I was untouchable. But very quickly I was humbled and what I learned from it has made me more open and more compassionate.
Gurdjieff says
Sincerity is the key to self knowledge and to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering
In the river of life suffering is not intentional. In conscious life suffering is intentional and of great value.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 18, 2009 14:51:32 GMT -5
Fear: I posted a response to your above thread, but when I hit the "post reply" button, my response never showed up. I think I was timed out during the time I was writing the note. Is there any way to recover the post without having to retype the thing? TIA
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Post by souley on Sept 18, 2009 15:01:42 GMT -5
If you press the "back button" you might have been able to get back to your post and try to copy it or repost it. But might be a bit late now:) I'm sure I would appreciate reading it though..
fear: Why did you start this thread?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 18, 2009 15:51:48 GMT -5
Souley: Thanks, I should have thought to do that, but as it turned out, I waited too long. Oh well, maybe I'll just summarize my earlier post.
Fear: I have no doubt that many people are motivated by suffering, but that is certainly not the ONLY thing that precipitates an interest in this path. I started on this path as a result of intellectual curiosity triggered by my scientific studies. I intuited that the paradigm I was being taught was overlooking something fundamental. For example, I suspected that the "particle paradoxes" in quantum mechanics had more to do with human thinking than with reality. I suspected that the micro-cosmic world was not really different from the macro-cosmic world, but I couldn't explain why. I was convinced that Bell's Theorem (in general, BT states that the universe is non-local) was pointing to something deeper than what was being written about it. I began to doubt that an electron or a photon was what my professors thought they were. I suspected that all of the observer paradoxes throughout all fields of modern science were pointing to something far more unusual than what people thought. I began to doubt that we would ever find a "smallest particle" of matter, because I intuited that in some sense our search was like a frog jumping half the distance down a log--that we could never get to the end of the log because of how we were pursuing and imagining our progress toward our goal (I intuited that we were somehow creating the particles that we were searching for). I often wondered what a dog or a baby sees and how that differs from what an adult sees. (these were only a few of the fifty initial questions that began to bother me). So, I was motivated by intellectual curiosity. One of my friends started on the path because he always wanted to experience God in some direct way. Other people are motivated by other things, so suffering is only one of many things that propel people down this path.
Eckhart often writes about the "pain body," but many people have never experienced anything like that. I have no doubt that that concept is meaningful to Eckhart and various other people, but from my viewpoint it is laughable. Some people write about "the dark night of the soul," but this, too, is just another set of experiences that only apply to some people.
Gurdjieff may have written that "to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering," but I would say that the exact opposite is equally possible. As far as suffering being something of great value, that's just another idea that people choose to invest in, but they can just as easily choose to ignore it. My advice would be to drop all such ideas and focus, instead, upon what you can see, hear, smell, taste, or touch. It's a quicker and easier path than continuing to invest in the same kind of thought processes that created all the confusion in the first place. Take care.
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Post by divinity on Sept 19, 2009 18:23:25 GMT -5
If it were true that suffering is the key to enlightenment, would not 95 percent of the world's population be enlightened?
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Sept 20, 2009 7:32:05 GMT -5
Suffering is often a common denominator when reading reports of awakening or enlightenment events. It is also the most dramatic. We like a good story and to read about how one broke free of their suffering and entered the light of day makes exciting copy. Suffering, like any illness, begs for resolution. The "cure" to our psychological suffering is often in our direct control and could be instructive to the non-suffering seekers among us.
Psychological suffering most often occurs when our inner world becomes dysfunctional. And our efforts to deal with it are ineffectual. This situation is a failure of the ego (or thought) to work out our problems. We tend to rely on thought to get us out of trouble, but many times it fails us. So we suffer, and feel even worse because our chosen tool (thought) is not helping us.
The key to shifting to the spiritual mode is let go (surrender) the need to solve our psychological problems using thought. The often used, but simplistic phrase, is "let go, let God". Of course, the God side is our spiritual side. Other metaphors include "purging the inner" whereby we no longer rely on our inner conditioning, and purge the inner matrix of thought. However you do it, the goal is to release the dependency on our inner world of thought so that we may simply Be. When that happens, our suffering, and everything else, goes out the window, leaving us in a better place.
Zendancer gave a good example of shifting away from thought in "the toilet awakening" story. The child used thought to try to figure out something ("what is holding up this toilet") and then followed the thought until thought could not longer conceive of the answer. At that point, thought basically gave up and the spiritual (or sensory) side kicked in. In this example, the mind continued to seek an answer even after thought gave up. This is what is means to go beyond thought; to let go of thought, to let go of suffering.
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Post by eputkonen on Sept 20, 2009 17:31:09 GMT -5
"Only through suffering can one begin the search within."
Suffering is not the key to Enlightenment, nor is it even a requirement.
Although I must admit that suffering is a trigger and portal for many, there are other portals and triggers.
I for one never really suffered. I was not in great pain...my life actually has been very good. What started my search was not suffering, but knowing at some level that what I saw was not the Truth...and so I sought Truth. I wanted to know what was as it was. It was not even an all-consuming desire...like some claim one must have to awaken. It just stuck with me...in the background...over the years.
It is definitely NOT only through suffering can one begin the search within. And I would not put suffering on such a pedestal.
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Sept 20, 2009 17:59:02 GMT -5
If it were true that suffering is the key to enlightenment, would not 95 percent of the world's population be enlightened? If conditioning is the basis for suffering then it is also the reason why most do not go beyond it. In spite of their oppressive conditioning many do transcend it, often going through a difficult and painful process to finally become free of it. It's impossible to know the percentage of sufferers vs. non-sufferers when it comes to awakening, but I suspect the majority would be on the suffering side.
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Sid
New Member
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Post by Sid on Sept 20, 2009 21:05:07 GMT -5
I have come to believe some of the deepest values of life are often found in adversity…more than anything else,it challenges all the hopes and expectations of our ego…undermining the ego can have a deep cleansing and liberating experience which could be considered a valuable silver lining of adversity.
“Yes, at the very bottom of my soul I feel grateful to all my misery and bouts of sickness and everything about me that is imperfect, because this sort of thing leaves me with a hundred back doors through which I can escape from enduring habits. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
Misery comes through the front door but freedom comes through the back door..but the back door can only be found when we give up trying to get out the front door~Sid
Adversity is like a strong wind. It tears away from us all but the things that cannot be torn, so that we see ourselves as we really are. ~Arthur Golden
The strong wind of adversity blows away all of our superficiality and petty preoccupations and leaves us naked ..and when we are no longer fearful of nakedness we are free of pretension and falsehood~Sid
When the Japanese mend broken objects, they aggrandize the damage by filling the cracks with gold. They believe that when something’s suffered damage and has a history it becomes more beautiful. ~Barbara Bloom
When we “crack up” or “fall apart” we have the opportunity to reintegrate our personality by using this experience in new ways enriching our life.~Sid
If you break your neck, if you have nothing to eat, if your house is on fire, then you got a problem. Everything else is inconvenience. ~Robert Fulghum
In times of crises we may experience a surge of energy giving us a strength previously unknown.~Sid
“Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall know the kingdom of heaven.”~ Bible
The spiritual journey involves much disillusionment and the letting go of unnecessary attachments. ~ Sid
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Post by Peter on Sept 21, 2009 3:54:49 GMT -5
Gurdjieff says
Sincerity is the key to self knowledge and to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering
In the river of life suffering is not intentional. In conscious life suffering is intentional and of great value. Good thread. Just wanted to add my two cents, this glossary entry makes the distinction between (ordinary) mechanical suffering and the conscious intentional suffering that Gurdjieff said was beneficial: glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=731&lsel=S
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Post by dramos on Sept 21, 2009 7:29:32 GMT -5
For myself, suffering has never been an enlightening moment. It actually became a humbling experience of which allows me to understand the suffering of others. Part of enlightenment is looking past ones suffering; searching for ones spiritual meaning is a key area toward enlightenment and as the endless pursuit of spirit continues the brighter the light becomes.
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 21, 2009 10:13:38 GMT -5
Hey Fear,
It seems that suffering is so common as a precursor to Enlightenment not because it's necessary, but because it's the process of recognizing how much we've already BEEN suffering, and THAT is motivation like no other to start to move out of it. It's simply the seeing of suffering that's already there, but we've been resisting and so ignoring for so long that we don't even realize that there's anything we've been ignoring (hence the term "ignorance").
Status quo, before recognizing on the deepest, most fundamental level that is not a separate person IS suffering, we just don't realize it. So it's again, more of a process of recognizing the suffering that is already there and really seeing that clearly. THEN the process can truly start.
Does that make sense? What do you think?
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Sid
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by Sid on Sept 21, 2009 10:58:20 GMT -5
"Man's extremity is God's opportunity" -Bible
All major religions believe surrender to the will of a Higher Power is the ultimate goal.
True surrender only occurs when we are in deep pain and suffering.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2009 11:19:47 GMT -5
I may be quibbling here, but two points need to be made. First, all major religions (in their usual format) teach that there is a self that can (and should) surrender to the will of God. This is totally false. There is no one who can surrender, and there is no need to. There are not two here. We only have to see through the illusion of separateness and the idea of surrender evaporates.
Second, although psychological suffering (and we really need to define what we mean by this word at some point) is clearly one of the major reasons that people start searching for the truth, it is not the only reason. A few people wake up "out of the blue, " and other people start searching for reasons other than suffering.
For those who are currrently suffering, the best approach has been spelled out by several people already; simply watch what's going on without fantasization or reflection. With sufficient silence, the suffering will be seen for what it is. Cheers.
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Sid
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by Sid on Sept 21, 2009 12:50:52 GMT -5
By surrender, I mean basically a surrender of the self... It is the awareness that the self cannot solve the problem of pain and gives up in futility and exhaustion... This cannot be done intellectually for that only supports a self as the 'knower' of truth.
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