Suffering is the key to Enlightenment

[zendancer]

Sid: We're probably talking about the same thing, but I started quibbling because I've never liked the word "surrender." It is usually taken to imply that there is someone who can surrender and thereby improve the situation. Probably Suzanne Segal has best addressed this issue in her book, "Collision with the Infinite." Here are a few quotes that seem appropos:

"All ideas about accomplishing spiritual awakening are based on the assumption that there is a someone, a you, who can perform the practices and accomplish the goal. But this someone doesn't exist. Take, for example, the popular spiritual notion that we need to 'get out of the way so that the infinite can just flow through us.' It is predicated on a nonexistent someone who can figure out how to surrender. We need to see that both spiritual and psychological practices, every single one of them, are based on taking ideas about who we are to be the truth of who we are.The idea that we are the doer behind our actions does not make us the doer, no matter how often we get hoodwinked into taking this idea for the truth."

Or this: "(my) collision with emptiness occurred in my twenty-eighth year--without any search for it on my part, without a teacher or a traditional lineage, and before I ever heard about no personal self...." (For those people who don't know Segal's story, she was standing on a streetcorner in Paris, France when the Infinite swept through her and carried away her personal sense of selfhood forever--a most unusual case).

"What seems to have occurred at the bus stop in Paris is that the human circuitry of this life started to participate consciously in the sense organ with which the vastness is constantly perceiving itself."

"The vastness carries a non-personal desire to experience itself. This appears to be the purpose of human life--for the vastness to meet itself everywhere it turns. The notion of personal growth or inner development is contrary in every respect to the way the vastness exists. The quest to awaken implies a sense of futurity that precludes basking in what actually is right now. I am unable to see the value in any method of evolution that implies getting somewhere or becoming something different. As soon as one embarks on a path to somewhere, the awesomeness of what is, here and now, becomes unavailable."

The best advice points people to the here and now and ignores most spiritual ideation. In truth, there is no time or space. Everything that people are seeking is already and always present, and who they are is the Infinite experiencing whatever is being experienced in this moment. Cheers.

[anonji]

This discussion is bringing out many important points. One thing I noticed is that those whose awakening is without suffering do not understand the experiential world of those that awaken by going through suffering. And I think the reverse is also true. I went through the suffering route and find it hard to conceive of a non-suffering way of arriving. But what I can't dispute is that Zendancer and I have arrived at the same place (the end of seeking) and see the nature of that place the same (that sensory experience is dominant). The main difference is that we entered the path in a different manner.

The "surrender" term is probably better understood by those that have gone through the suffering route. Suffering is most often experienced by those who are stuck in a repeating thought mode. They try to run their lives (and their self) in a thought bubble and believe many more things than they actually experience. They are estranged from their true nature because they filter life through thought -- they are not real to themselves. For many, this type of life can produce much suffering because our true nature is suppressed. If the suffering gets bad enough, there is a real motivation to let it go. The process of letting it go can also be painful and many times happens when we reach the limits of suffering. You can cleverly say that there is no self to surrender and that our true nature is always there. This is true except that the ego (or false self) has created a pseudo-reality which seems real to us. The suffering does not allow us to easily examine the reality of our lives and change course. It eventually will require a surrender of that way of living; firstly to be free of the pain; and then afterward as an opening to the spiritual life that was hidden by the illusions of self.

I hope you can see that there are two ways of looking at enlightenment or awakening.

[souley]

As zendancer I started out of questions and curiosity. And as LM says, then I started to see all the suffering that has always been there. The process for me has been a total crash over the last year or so, before that I had no clue about any spirituality. While now I have a feeling that I have not felt since I was a little child. I believe that the "dark night of the soul" and the intensity of suffering is something that can be more or less evident depending on how fast the transformation is. I think you LM has mentioned something along these lines?

I think of the "pain body" as a sort of accumulated pain through all my years, every misconception has an associated amount of pain. As ideas are seen through, this is released. Or the pain can be caught without it having the form of an idea and be released right away. For me this has been as close to physical pain as I think is possible. It is like a pain in the chest, that is there for me to see through as long as I face it, and eventually it dissolves. The amount of pain seems almost endless, but the results speak for themselves in my case. Don't take this literally, but almost literally But once again, I think this and what is called the dark night of the soul is hardly noticeable if it is happening over a span of tens of years.

I also believe it possible to have much less of an ego then I have, and then it would maybe not be as painful. As I did not enter this through some kind of surrender, but rather to know and understand, (partly as creation itself, and partly as a souley ego-thing) I was not prepared to surrender anything at first. But life surely showed "me" what was true and not in that

[zendancer]

Anonji: Yes, I think you've explained the situation pretty well. After spending twenty years thinking about reality, I was very frustrated that I hadn't made any progress, but I surely wasn't suffering in the way that most people describe. For one thing, this body/mind had always been incredibly optimistic and very cheerful. I was a lucky kid whose parents were totally supportive of my interests. They even built a room for me to use as my own scientific laboratory (I was a science fanatic throughout high school). I always followed my bliss and never cared much about money or what other people thought. At the same time, I developed a big ego, thought of myself as a creative scientist/artist, and was very proud of my architectural designs, solar energy experiments, artwork, poetry, etc. Then, I got trapped in a business that I started and got stressed out. I was stuck between wanting to do my own artistic thing and the financial requirements of the marketplace. My mind gradually became filled with incessant thoughts, and I started meditating in the hope of finding some mental space and peace. After my first two or three breakthroughs, my pride dissolved because I discovered that I wasn't responsible for what was happening. After about two years of practice, I felt like Zen had given me back my "true direction" that I had lost for a while.

One of the funny things that happened along the way is that I went on a big Zen retreat where everyone broke up into groups of five to discuss their lives. Wow! The other four people in my group had been on the spiritual path forever and they had gone through everything--EST, rolfing, re-birthing, primal scream therapy, analysis, energy work, etc. They had spent years suffering with relationship issues, religious indoctrination issues, trying to get rid of ego, etc. When it came my turn to speak, I told them that I had always been a happy camper doing my own thing, but had lost my direction for a while. I felt like Zen had helped me find my way back to a child-like state of mind and I was deeply appreciative. When I finished talking, I guess I looked so happy that everyone stared at me like I was some kind of alien from another planet.

Looking back, I can see that I went through periods of frustration, stress, and irritation, but nothing that seems bad enough to qualify as suffering in the way that most people use the word. The main point that I was making at the start of this thread is exactly what you stated--that there are many different paths that lead to truth. In the case of Suzanne Segal, she was just standing on a street corner waiting for a bus and BOOM! her selfhood was blown away. Ironically, her suffering didn't start until after that event, and it took her ten or twelve years to accept that having no self was okay. The world is a pretty funny and unpredictable place! LOL

[lightmystic]

Everyone is making great points. And it's definitely true that it's different for everyone. It seems to have something to do with the speed of growth. Some people have a constant growth period, and so there is not a lot of intensity all at once, as it's more spread out of over time. Some people have nothing and then a lot of intensity as once.

From what I can tell, it seems to be related in some ways to the personality. More intense personalities seem to have more intense experiences, and so more intense Awakenings.

There does seem to be this initial Awakening point where the void is recognized to be the Self, and that seems to be taken by gravity (eventually) into the black whole where no separate small self remains (of course, this is just a way of talking about it). For me it seemed that there could be plenty of suffering still when that Awakening of recognition took place, just like with Suzanne Segal. It's really only when that letting go takes over on the most fundamental level that suffering seems pretty much eradicated. But then it even deepens. So it's not a binary process, even though there are some binary points (seemingly). But suffering seems like it's the order of things if a lot is being processed quickly. If that same thing is processed over more time, then it tends to be a little easier. Again seeming to turn around the intensity of the personality to some extent.

[anonji]

My awakening event illustrates a time-compressed process that was intense but short-lived. I did not know about spirituality and was not seeking anything. But my inner turmoil was so great that I needed to resolve it in a hurry. The process is akin to what happens with severe nausea. The discomfort and dis-ease builds and you know it can't be stopped. The intensity reaches a climax and you vomit. It is a wrenching experience and and when it is over you are well again. That is what happened to me on a psychological level. I went in with severe psychological nausea and came out healed, in a blissful state. That was not the endpoint, but rather the beginning. It took almost 20 years to integrate that initial event.

I think the suffering can happen when you see your whole life clearly all at once, rather than incrementally discovering and working through issues over time. When you see all that is wrong all at once, it almost knocks you out, and there is a great motivation to resolve it quickly. If you are unable to resolve it timely, then mental illness is the next step.

[zendancer]

Wow. Lots of fascinating comments and observations on this thread! In the past my wife and I have discussed the intensity thing and have also speculated about the Meiers/Briggs profile in relation to spiritual experience. My wife thinks that people who are ultra-T (like the Buddha)enter the spiritual path in a different way than people who are ultra-F (like Christ). We have both wondered if ultra-S people ever get interested in this path because their interests are usually horizontal whereas the ultra-N people have interests that are usually vertical.

For those unfamiliar with the Meiers/Briggs test, it is a questionnaire that sorts personality types along four polarities--N (intuitive) or S (sensing), T (thinking) or F (feeling), E (extroverted) or I (introverted), and P (perceptive) or J (judging). Each scale goes from one extreme to the other, so we might have someone who is either strongly extroverted, strongly introverted, or balanced between the two. Typically, a strong N is interested in what lies below the surface of things whereas a strong S has little interest in anything beyond the obvious. A strong P likes everything open-ended whereas a stong J wants everything nailed down (every i dotted and every t crossed). If someone tries to insult a strong T, the T will not take it personally. He/she will wonder, "Is there any validity to what they are saying?" and will then think about it and reach an impersonal conclusion. A strong F will feel an insult like a knife through the heart and may respond with ferocious anger or sadness. Because my wife and I are opposites in all categories other than N (thank goodness!) and because we are both off the scale in each category, it really helped us to understand each other better after we took the test. As an extreme ENTP, I have a great deal of empathy for my wife's viewpoint as an extreme INFJ, and for those of you who are familiar with the questionnaire, this should provoke a very hearty laugh!

At one time we even speculated that people who are very strongly attached to their ideas may have more dramatic experiences when they are wrenched free from those ideas than people who are not so strongly attached to their ideas in the first place. I don;t know if there is any kind of psychology test for this sort of thing, but it might be an interesting subject for someone to investigate.

AAR, it would be interesting to give everyone on this site an intensity test (if one exists), a strength of idea attachment test (if one exists), and a Meiers/Briggs test, and then compare the results of those tests with the kinds of spiritual experiences they've had. This sounds like a perfect task for Ken Wilber. Someone please get in touch with him. LOL

[souley]

Would that make anonji Thinking then? And LM maybe Feeling? If we go by intensity.

I'm INFJ myself, probably to the very extreme, so it adds up:) But I have a strange combination of intuition and logic. I suspect my partner is something like ESTJ or ESFJ. Since she is S I can't really judge the T/F in her, it's all just strange to me, pretty crazy I think if a Sensing person should be sufficiently interested in this, it would be through intense suffering and the need to escape that.

I have a friend who is an extreme NT, but I can't talk about any philosophy and spirituality with him since he already got all the answers. But there are of course other issues (massive ego?) then type of personality when it comes to this.

[lightmystic]

Just for fun, I did a personality test to see. I'm a slight ENFJ (pretty close to center according to the test I took). Although I think the moderation has a lot to do with getting over a lot of the typical ENFJ issues. I'm sure I was an extreme one back in the day. It does seem to make feelings and such more intense, and so it can be a more intense, more difficult path, but that level of intensity widens out to a bigness that is incredible. From what I can see, though the actual Awakening is the same, the difficulty before is in direct proportion to the openness after. And that's cool, because it provides a depth of understanding at those extreme levels. Which I think is great! But that's probably just because I'm me, and I'm like that.

Sept 22, 2009 15:41:32 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Wow. Lots of fascinating comments and observations on this thread! In the past my wife and I have discussed the intensity thing and have also speculated about the Meiers/Briggs profile in relation to spiritual experience. My wife thinks that people who are ultra-T (like the Buddha)enter the spiritual path in a different way than people who are ultra-F (like Christ). We have both wondered if ultra-S people ever get interested in this path because their interests are usually horizontal whereas the ultra-N people have interests that are usually vertical.

For those unfamiliar with the Meiers/Briggs test, it is a questionnaire that sorts personality types along four polarities--N (intuitive) or S (sensing), T (thinking) or F (feeling), E (extroverted) or I (introverted), and P (perceptive) or J (judging). Each scale goes from one extreme to the other, so we might have someone who is either strongly extroverted, strongly introverted, or balanced between the two. Typically, a strong N is interested in what lies below the surface of things whereas a strong S has little interest in anything beyond the obvious. A strong P likes everything open-ended whereas a stong J wants everything nailed down (every i dotted and every t crossed). If someone tries to insult a strong T, the T will not take it personally. He/she will wonder, "Is there any validity to what they are saying?" and will then think about it and reach an impersonal conclusion. A strong F will feel an insult like a knife through the heart and may respond with ferocious anger or sadness. Because my wife and I are opposites in all categories other than N (thank goodness!) and because we are both off the scale in each category, it really helped us to understand each other better after we took the test. As an extreme ENTP, I have a great deal of empathy for my wife's viewpoint as an extreme INFJ, and for those of you who are familiar with the questionnaire, this should provoke a very hearty laugh!

At one time we even speculated that people who are very strongly attached to their ideas may have more dramatic experiences when they are wrenched free from those ideas than people who are not so strongly attached to their ideas in the first place. I don;t know if there is any kind of psychology test for this sort of thing, but it might be an interesting subject for someone to investigate.

AAR, it would be interesting to give everyone on this site an intensity test (if one exists), a strength of idea attachment test (if one exists), and a Meiers/Briggs test, and then compare the results of those tests with the kinds of spiritual experiences they've had. This sounds like a perfect task for Ken Wilber. Someone please get in touch with him. LOL

[divinity]

"Suffering" and "enlightenment" in the same sentence feels more to me like a man made religion with all the restrictions.

[fear]

Sorry for the late reply, I haven't been on this forum since I posted it. I'm sure you guys have put this one to bed anyway judging by the responses.

Souly I started this thread because it's what I've found to be the truth for myself. Although there is no concrete evidence of what I'm saying to be true, it's what I have observed in my environment and in my own experiences. And when I read about other's experiencing the same things it only validates it further.

It's difficult to argue my point when most of you feel that suffering is only one way towards awakening and that there are many others. I disagree with this and I'll make an attempt to explain why, only in awakening or enlightenment is there non duality. In duality our God self and ego self are in constant conflict, this creates suffering whether one admits to it or not. Only in awakening is suffering over. Not that physical pain will end but all pain is immediately accepted and hence suffering is no more.

Those of us that are not awakened are suffering. We may not recognize it but it's there. Most run away from it and that's why 95% of us are not enlightened. But if you recognize your suffering and learn to accept it, awakening will occur eventually. You will never know that it is happening though. It will just happen.

I agree with what you are saying LM. The suffering is already there in duality.

[anonji]

This snippet from AA shows how suffering can lead to surrender. By that process one can enter a spiritual life where self and ego are no longer primary. Acknowledging one's suffering can help open the door wide so we don't have to spend years involved in techniques and methods - we are released, all at once.

===============================================

So what happens when you surrender? For one, you stop doing direct battle. Instead of trying to control your drinking [your ego-based life] you throw your hands up in the air and say: “I give up! This thing has got the better of me! It is out of my control!”

Until this moment you have filled yourself with “Yeah… but…”s Every attempt made by the Universe to reveal to you the nature of your problem has been resisted with denials, rationalizations and obfuscation.

Then, one day, something happens. It is like a muscle in spasm suddenly relaxing, suddenly letting go. A new world opens up. What we had been tensely resisting is no longer occupying our focus. We are no longer battling the notion that we cannot control our drinking.

Surrender implies a shift, a sudden change. Surrender is a global cessation of resistance: you stop fiercely defending your old ideas. All of a sudden, you don’t know anything any more and you are open to the new.

This surrender is also the path of many religious and spiritual traditions. Entering a monastery, taking a vow of service, shaving your head and taking on a new name, accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, accepting a Guru in Hinduism or a monk as your teacher in a Zen monastery—these are all moments of surrender. The value of surrender as an entry point to a spiritual path has been known and practiced by many cultures.

Science and rational thinking (Aristotelian logic) do not understand the value of surrender. Surrender is a quantum leap, not continuous, incremental change. Even our formal mathematics has great trouble dealing with discontinuous change.

[lightmystic]

I love the way this describes the process. Thanks for sharing this! I very much enjoyed reading it.

Sept 29, 2009 20:19:30 GMT -5 anonji said:

This snippet from AA shows how suffering can lead to surrender. By that process one can enter a spiritual life where self and ego are no longer primary. Acknowledging one's suffering can help open the door wide so we don't have to spend years involved in techniques and methods - we are released, all at once.

===============================================

So what happens when you surrender? For one, you stop doing direct battle. Instead of trying to control your drinking [your ego-based life] you throw your hands up in the air and say: “I give up! This thing has got the better of me! It is out of my control!”

Until this moment you have filled yourself with “Yeah… but…”s Every attempt made by the Universe to reveal to you the nature of your problem has been resisted with denials, rationalizations and obfuscation.

Then, one day, something happens. It is like a muscle in spasm suddenly relaxing, suddenly letting go. A new world opens up. What we had been tensely resisting is no longer occupying our focus. We are no longer battling the notion that we cannot control our drinking.

Surrender implies a shift, a sudden change. Surrender is a global cessation of resistance: you stop fiercely defending your old ideas. All of a sudden, you don’t know anything any more and you are open to the new.

This surrender is also the path of many religious and spiritual traditions. Entering a monastery, taking a vow of service, shaving your head and taking on a new name, accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, accepting a Guru in Hinduism or a monk as your teacher in a Zen monastery—these are all moments of surrender. The value of surrender as an entry point to a spiritual path has been known and practiced by many cultures.

Science and rational thinking (Aristotelian logic) do not understand the value of surrender. Surrender is a quantum leap, not continuous, incremental change. Even our formal mathematics has great trouble dealing with discontinuous change.

[karen]

Suffering has only been helpful for me after becoming more aware of the predicament I'm in. When all my suffering was caused by forces "out there" - I was just spinning my wheels.

But now that I'm aware it's all coming from within, whenever I suffer, it's a tap on my shoulder to remind me I'm dropping into mindlessness again and to be aware.

[Peter]

Hi Booyah5, welcome to the board.

Yes, I think a lot of people start/restart questioning their lives (and perhaps looking for some help) when things aren't going so well. In the Buddhist wheel of life, the God realm (everything is great) is seen as a difficult place in which to gain enlightenment (why stop when you're having fun?), and the hell realm actually much easier because there's motivation to "give up everything" - that surrender that Anonji quoted.

Walking down the street a few months ago I thought something similar to what you came up with: "Hey, when I'm upset, I could use that to gain awareness. Then when I'm feeling happy, I could just enjoy feeling happy". Then a few steps later I thought "Wait a minute, when I'm upset I could use that to gain awarenss. And then when I'm happy I could ALSO use that to gain awareness. Now that would be progress".